Prog V3.0 Discussion Thread

Yes are definitely up with my all-time greats. Wish there was more Art Zoyd fans.

Dominique: disagree. This is why a "prog" chart isn't very helpful to me. I already know the Flaming Lips and Muse are popular -- what I'm after is rock music that sounds like it's trying to go places we haven't been before. I do believe this is actually what the original prog bands like Yes and King Crimson were trying to do (however close they may or may not have approached that ideal).

I haven't heard everything (or even that much at all) that the early prog bands were into but I'm very sceptical when people say "(x) classical composers and (x) jazz gods done all this before". Such evaluations seem very reductive. I doubt listening to all those influences is going to get me something that makes Tormato redundant (fooking love that album).

I tend to look for prog because I like the symphonic structures, complexity, bonkers sounds, lots of odd mixtures/contrasting elements and often imaginative themes that other rock genres are less likely to use. There's a lot you can do with all that. And some of the stuff that isn't particularly ambitious or innovative is just beautifully done. Who can say that everything they like is innovative and brilliant?

Rushomancy: avoid being called "prog" like the plague, which it basically is

Don't know what you mean by this. Most of the bad/mediocre prog music for the core audience doesn't really have any larger impact, it just stays in obscurity.

You guys should check out the Doors

Haha!

The early Emperor and Immortal albums definitely hit my prog buttons as hard as anything. Oddly enough Ihsahn said a few years ago he was trying to learn about prog but I thought they were always doing it well enough.

"But isn't this ambition and innovation something that all music should ideally do?"

no. i think the fewer bands that have the "ambition" or "innovation" found in bands like the flaming lips and muse, the better.

here's the crux of the problem: at some point, on some level, chart music is going to be about appealing to the lowest common denominator. that's not a criticism of the charts, but "prog" music is, in theory, about the opposite of that (even if we know in practice it is more often, like any other hidebound genre, like hitting all the right cultural signifiers to appeal to a certain subgroup- here's a mellotron patch, here's a section in 7/8, etc., etc.)

that's not to say music has to be original to be good- i do really like anglagard, who on their first album lifted entire passages from schicke fuhrs frohling- or that i insist on music being original- i don't. merely that far too much of the music which proclaims itself to be "prog" these days is neither original _nor_ good.

best case scenario starting a "prog" chart is about as meaningful as when the grammys started awarding a "jazz fusion" grammy in something like 1980. as i recall, they wound up giving pat metheny a dozen grammys or so over the next decade and then quietly packing up shop.

robert: what i mean is that if you make good music, and it is stylistically "prog", you will do anything possible to avoid being labelled that, because the wider cultural assumption, which i'm starting to think is well-earned with moves like "prog" magazine, the "prog" hall of fame, etc., is that "prog" is a bad form of music. it's sort of the confederate flag of music genres.

I wasn't referring to the bands in the chart but I agree with the problem of a chart, I just think the "progressive" ethic is a universal thing that can be applied to any creative medium. It's doubtful there's ever going to be the kind of constant flow of good prog like there is with something like metal (although I don't know what state the metal charts are in). Although there's a handful of Flaming Lips tracks I really enjoy.

it's sort of the confederate flag of music genres.

Hardly seems like that anymore. I would have agreed back when "shoegazing" began to stop being a dirty word but the only time I see the stigma is older fans who're still overly defensive about past abuse. Maybe it's one of the genres that gets overly associated by it's worst examples but it's a damn long way from nearly being as disrespected as nu-metal or 00s emo, I'd say even goth still has more stigma. Aside from the odd jokey sneer popping in threads probably mostly by people whose music taste was formed from the late 70s to the late 90s but younger music fans don't care about those prejudices. A lot of the newer fans seem to have come through metal, of course it's always been in metal and they're far less likely to give a shit about being uncool than indie fans.

I understand why some modern ambitious bands wouldn't want to be pigeonholed like that for the reasons they wouldn't want to be stuck with any rock music subgenre tag. Bands like Battles, Mew and Field Music (dunno if you care about these bands but they are fairly successful but not through the core audience to the extent of Steve Wilson) don't seem to mind being stuck with it as long as it doesn't dominate peoples expectations for them (Wilson even said just as much). Newer high quality Rock In Opposition type bands aren't going to resist because that's probably where their fanbase will come from in the first place.

this constant refrain of 'of course everyone agrees 'prog' sucks' is wrong and really really stale. 'shoegaze' is a great comparison. there was a time when people considered slowdive a joke which is about as wrong as wrong can be. lots and lots of people 'get into' music in part because they are seeking shelter from the wages of being social underdogs or outcasts. the silver lining of critics turning against prog in the mid-70s and keeping that prejudice up 40 years later still is prog has become a sort of 'refuge genre' (one among many) that people can take comfort in

For me the benefit that Yes (apart from one hit) and a few other big bands were a totally fresh experience for me. It felt like this big blast of energy came out of nowhere or an alternate reality where they a big band. Even though the bands were and still are famous it was near enough like exploring Projekt goth music that you never see in physical shops.
Ideally I'd like this music to be very famous for the quality but never played in adverts and only relatively scant radio play. I know there are bands like that but I'm blanking on them.

I've got mixed feelings about that Prog magazine. I find Malcolm Dome's tireless enthusiasm kind of fascinating. I like that they give long overdue coverage to lots of great bands and talk about reissues of more obscure 70s bands.
But magazine cover/lead feature conservatism that plagues Mojo and Uncut is there (though not as bad as the same 10 or 15 genuine stadium filling megastars over and over again). The newer bands they tend to focus on are just too weak most of the time (and most of them just sound more like overly shiny classic rock revivalists rather than retro-proggers) when they could easily use more space on Ruins, Mew and Battles, who they have covered but it doesn't make sense that they didn't give them even more coverage. The magazine is so damn expensive too but I'm kind of tempted to get the new one now.

The best song by new band I ever heard on those cds was Fierce And The Dead with "On Vhs"
http://thefierceandthedead.bandcamp.com/album/on-vhs

I quite liked "Shadow" by Touchstone, kinda poppy gothy power metal. I don't expect many of you would be into it but I thought it was fun.

But hands down the best thing I heard was The Enid, a 70s band but a new song. Amazing.

But anyway, new bands Anyone?

Also, I'm not sure what can realistically be expected from those magazine compilations, dunno if it's a complicated thing to secure rights to good music on a regular basis.
Terrorizer is a really good magazine but the few cds I heard from them were mostly average c-list extreme metal.
I listened to all the Mojo, Uncut and Word compilations for a few years and most of the good music was by firmly established bands or already very successful new bands. All the newbies seemed to be Dylan and Springsteen wannabes.
This was one of the compilations!
https://rateyourmusic.com/release/comp/various_artists_f2/uncut_presents__fill_your_head_with_prog___11_mind_bending_classics/

Just been listening to a few tracks by José Luis Fernández Ledesma Q from Mexico. He's been in a few bands starting in 1995 with Niagra Vallis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiO0_kyuDZY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPgSv3VbGJI

As Brian Eno once suggested, the concept of “pretension” is just a hangover from the British class system, with its deep suspicion of anyone attempting to rise above their station. “I’m very happy to have added my little offering to the glowing mountain of things described as pretentious,” Eno wrote. “I’m happy to have made claims on things that I didn’t have any ‘right’ to, and I’m happy to have tried being someone else to see what it felt like.”

http://grantland.com/hollywood-prospectus/days-between-wheelhouses-growing-and-getting-f%E2%80%8B-%E2%80%8B-%E2%80%8B-ed-up-in-public-with-miley-cyrus-and-her-dead-petz/

sing it miley

MaresNest i could get behind a prog 3.0 thread since this revival has been one of the more interesting musical developments over the past few years. you're totally right about how frustrating it is to sift through the new stuff since a lot of it sucks. (feel the same way about punk rock.) those low points (and there are a lot of them) are dreadful, and the high points are rarely noticed outside of place like progressiveears.

This is really OTM, it's sad that a band like Birds & Buildings gets so little press anywhere else even though they've gotten great reviews across the board. There are so many bands started by dudes who just grew up loving prog and decided to start a band themselves even if they didn't really know how to write or play. Hell some of these bands even wind up being really good after a couple of albums. But Britton feels like a natural talent, both in writing and in playing, he's the sort of guy I worry is just gonna hang it up some day because he struggles to sell 100 copies of an album he worked a thousand hours on.

Also I have to point out that I don't see a problem with bands that sound retro or are overly influenced by Yes or Genesis or Rush, as long as they can do it right. So many bands take the genre really seriously and make music that's so long winded and un-fun *cough cough...looking at you Flower Kings* - that's why I don't have an issue with Glass Hammer even though they lift a ton from their influences, their music can really be a blast and you can tell they really have fun making it. Or take this song by a band called Druckfarben that I've previously posted in a Yes thread - I don't care that it so clearly apes Steve Howe's style, it just rules and that's all it really needs to do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBgEmgWzLf8

damn there are some hot licks there! thanks for posting that

i've been coming around to flower kings, after having a really bad reaction to discovering them immediately post-college, when i was an overt corny indie fuck but secretly, unbeknownst to friends, searching for bands who sounds like YES. part of listening to prog is coping with an imaginary tribunal of robert christgau, lester bangs, and sundry other smug types making fun of you. overcoming that emotional handicap in part involved appreciating glass hammer (especially 'chronometree') which melted away my neurotic misgivings enough to allow time for other old school* revivalists, not just flower kings, but that other 'shameless' roine stolt band, transatlantic, along with wobbler, astra, diagonal, and anglagard

*why is 'old school' "good" in country, hip hop, punk, and jazz, but "bad" in prog? why is prog so often judged by double standards? are people really so shallow they don't realize they're doing it, or is there some weird pleasure (status marker) in sticking it to the prognostic?

I think "old school" prog is accepted in context, as a product of its time. But I find that contemporary (or at least post-heyday) prog tends toward the cheesy, or often does. Possibly because the focus on musicianship so often manifests itself in solos and long songs, both of which are pretty much out of favor or at least a matter of taste, especially if said solos are silly. I suppose that's why I've always glommed on to the slower, post-Talk Talk sort of indie prog. The arrangements and songs are really interesting, but the temps tend to damper show-offery. I'm thinking of bands like These New Puritans:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftvICVWLBKY

Otherwise, the punk/metal side of prog remains pretty compelling, whether Tool or Opeth or other technical stuff, maybe because it's got a discordant edge that I think a lot of prog (flights of fancy and all) can lack. Like that nutzo band Shining, which clearly (see below) leans prog but otherwise doesn't sound indebted to the '70s stuff at all:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0j4WkoDrtg

that's sick

sick jazz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wN3PLKDQZQI&index=4&list=RDDXDBDktSRa4

oh man, I bet King Crimson themselves would've been proud of that

wonder how much the 'cheese factor' (in this as elsewhere) is the continental europeanness of prog -- it never really died down far as i know in italy, and it's still vital all over scandanavia. what might sound effete or weak in manchester and oklahoma maybe makes more sense in like venice or krakow

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2REetE6JJ0Y

a lack of facility with english probably doesn't much help either with self-conscious anglo-americans, who'd make fun of even neil peart's lyrics and song titles

I don't know about weak or effete, but my prob with a lot of prog (even much I like) is it can sound like interstitial music, or the kind of polished pomp you might hear while, say, a magician does his trick:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcoSfjjkcjY

stuff like that is sort of the price for the payoff sometimes like cookie monster growls in death metal, though, or cartoon violence in hip hop, no? and for sure the NECKS and ART ZOYD and TALK TALK can go off on 10 / 20 / 30 / 40 minute long jams without any illusionist anything, so i think of 'prog' in terms of them too not just the worst offenders kind of for balance / silencing the bangs voice i'm otherwise glad is there with me when listening to the stooges say

that magician stuff sounds more like michael nyman than prog rock to me

I really didn't mean that one specifically, just a general neo-classical symphonic pomp-prog. Plus, fuzak and Mannheim Steamroller new age haven't done prog any favors either. Or, you know, Dream Theater.

I was wondering if things had gotten to the point that there might be bands that were undeniably influenced by Porcupine Tree, then after some googling..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zejmxtjpOY

ELP-esque carnival keyboard vibe doesn't always come off that well either. defining this type of music by valleys instead of peaks is an interesting phenom; i do it too. i wouldn't dismiss like electric wizard because of warrant the way i would radiohead because of marillion (no offense marillion!)

xpost

I was wondering if things had gotten to the point that there might be bands that were undeniably influenced by Porcupine Tree

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOzRzoE-F5Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkbYGWbJd2s

has steven wilson ever done anything that's transcended his influences?

Not in my opinion. No matter what kind of style or feel he's attempting go for ends up this slick, bland mush. Everything sounds too half-arsed and safe but that's a general symptom of modern so-called prog.

He's done some great work behind a mixing board though but as for his own music: nah.

prog 3.0 master = Bob Drake. Taking sometimes obvious influences like Yes and Henry Cow, but coming out utterly his own thing.

Yeah I love Bob Drake! Twisting 50s RnR/bluegrass/whatever else into avant-prog shapes but remaining absurdly catchy. So good.

Bob Drake > Steven Wilson = crazy talk

more prog 3.0 masters

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCrTWajDlsc

Bob Drake > Steven Wilson = crazy talk

not even sure I've heard Steven Wilson's music. what's an album to check out?

any of them really but The Raven That Refused to Sing is his masterpiece imo

"if you make good music, and it is stylistically "prog", you will do anything possible to avoid being labelled that" ― rush0mancy

serious? you think prog musicians give a fuck?

" yes and genesis weren't even that good in the first place that their music bears infinite retreads"...
" the stuff i listened to used to be called 'prog' and now it is called 'symphonic black metal' or 'nu jazz' or 'chamber folk' or 'abstract hip-hop' or 'microhouse'" ― rush0mancy

are you in the right thread?

Tones Of Town is not bad but Plumb is the really prog Field Music album.

Measure is their masterpiece IMO

and screw Wilson, what we really need to sort out is Bill Drake vs Bob Drake

I stopped caring for anything labeled prog when the majority became symphonic black metal. So if there is actually any good modern prog bands, I wouldn't know about it. Maybe there is something to 'prog' getting fucked over by having all the metal thrown in... but it's easy to ignore it because the metal is usually labeled something like 'prog-metal'. Actual prog music stopped being made imo (just like the Cantebury scene) and anything labeled plain old prog nowadays is an exclusively different genre than prog 1.0 (except for solo acts from old guys that were part of the original movement)

I'd like to expound upon something I've noticed in a lot of prog which frankly puts me off

The other night I went to a gig, involving Thumpermonkey (who are FUCKING AMAZING and whose new stuff sounds genuinely wondrous - I will link some of their stuff here, probably) and two other nu-hard-prog bands. And as good as Thumpermonkey were, the other two did not cut it in the songwriting or the interplay departments. They made a lot of noise - one with a saxophone, which was nice - but it didn't amount to much.

Worse, though, was their attitude and their approach to lyrics. Both had songs about oral sex. One in particular was just cock-rock gone modular. Lumpen AND pretentious, if you'll allow. The band was fucking leaking testosterone everywhere, exuding contempt for women and worship of their own penises as they prattled their nonsense.

Now, while the band with the saxophone had genuine promise (and their oral sex song was weird and dentistry-related enough to be excused), not to mention humility, the other band really made me reflect upon the lineage of ultra-masculine prog and its idiotic, lascivious approach to sex. From ELP to Gentle Giant and then later to the guitar-pranging morons of today, you have these contemptuous lionised fuckwits inflicting their sexual supremacy onto the audience, whether on their album covers or in their lyrics. It's fucking tiresome!

What I'm saying is NOT that I want all prog to be super-sensitive Steven Wilson 'oh I'm such a nice guy' nice-guy-ness. I like music and lyrics with a bit of edge. But I fucking hate the maleness of quite a lot of prog. Does anybody else find themselves having a problem with this?

Oh, and the cock-prog band were from Manchester, obviously.

listening to the Steven Wilson record now. I've only really heard the first song, listening to the second. Pretty clearly indebted to 70s classic prog, particular Yes, which the bass, drums and lead guitar tone seem to use as the primary (only?) sound template. The vocals I'm not sold on, but the backing vocals (also very Yes-like) aren't actually far from how Bob Drake's sound. The energy is good, and the playing is good (I think this is Marco Minneman on drums, and he's an interesting player).

Compositionally, I would say this is a lot more straightforward than someone like Bob Drake. It's got a big, symphonic form, though is actually a little simpler in construction that something like Close to the Edge or Awaken by Yes. In truth, this strikes me as a good example of the kind of prog I was writing about above, regarding music that sounds like its influences to the extent it would most appeal to listeners looking for, say, a long lost Yes track. Admittedly, not my thing really (at least in the prog realm). Anagram, I'm actually surprised you don't like Bob Drake, because he definitely has his Yes moments (particularly vocally). But, writing-wise, they are not very similar I guess.

xposts: It's not something I've noticed (though I don't listen to much current prog) but that confirms my view that prog bands should only write vague pseudo-mystical gubbins that I don't have to pay attention to.

Slightly embarrassingly I've only heard one Bob Drake song *ever*. And it was on a CD that doubled as a game of musical Consequences. Dominique himself gets the second slot after Bob! Oh it's good fun

(Dominique, ending your track with precisely 20 seconds of beeeeep was brilliantly evil, you evil man!)

never heard bob or bill but something i appreciate about steven wilson is he can cut it in the songwriting department. his first two solo albums aren't just revival exercises; they're dynamic anthemic rock albums packed with killer hooks even on songs that run past 10 minutes. 'the raven that refused to sing' is a neo-prog clinic, i think, an homage to the artists that pioneered the whole vibe, every bit as compelling as the DECEMBERISTS' 'crane wife'. new one is still sinking in. it's the most self-consciously experimental/'sui generis' of his four solo albums. i dunno. PORCUPINE TREE never really did it for me but to use a stupid analogy, wilson on his own is a 'standing on the shoulders of giants' proposition, and reminds me of the CLIENTELE 'refining' FELT and the SMITHS, or PAVEMENT 'refining' the FALL and SWELL MAPS. good tones are good tones; why not make use?

Worse, though, was their attitude and their approach to lyrics. Both had songs about oral sex. One in particular was just cock-rock gone modular. Lumpen AND pretentious, if you'll allow. The band was fucking leaking testosterone everywhere, exuding contempt for women and worship of their own penises as they prattled their nonsense.

Now, while the band with the saxophone had genuine promise (and their oral sex song was weird and dentistry-related enough to be excused), not to mention humility, the other band really made me reflect upon the lineage of ultra-masculine prog and its idiotic, lascivious approach to sex. From ELP to Gentle Giant and then later to the guitar-pranging morons of today, you have these contemptuous lionised fuckwits inflicting their sexual supremacy onto the audience, whether on their album covers or in their lyrics. It's fucking tiresome!

This really shocked me (not in an "oh, my stars!" way, but in a "wtf, didn't see that coming" way) when I accidentally paid attention to King Crimson's lyrics, particularly the '72-74 lineup. It's not that I'm offended by it, it's more like...haven't you got something better to talk about? You spent all that time working out the key changes and time signatures, you couldn't do a second pass at the words?

I also dislike swaggering macho boner music but ELP's "Brain Salad Surgery" is one of the only examples in prog I can think of. I've never heard that infamous King Crimson song.

well I love Bob's music obviously. Here's a track that I think puts his Yes influence on its sleeve, but somehow also doesn't sound like any Yes song I know:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojPOPDnz47w

I've honestly never noticed much 70s prog in Steven Wilson/Porcupine Tree (heard In Absentia, Fear Of A Blank Planet, The Incident, Insurgents). I definitely see the Radiohead influence though.

that bob drake song slays

i would recommend to people never listening to the FACES if groupie jokes rub you the wrong way

don't feel like crimson ever recovered after pete sinfield split until belew started writing lyrics

robert, 'the raven that refused to sing' sounds like a synthesis of the best strawbs, yes, gentle giant, and crimson to me way more than radiohead

review of the upcoming Wobbler!

https://www.velvetthunder.co.uk/wobbler-dwellers-of-the-deep-karisma/

very much looking forward to that one, From Silence to Somewhere really does feel like a great lost prog LP that would've slotted right in with the best of Yes

Thanks for all that about the concept and Heliotians explanation.

I never much liked "21st Century Schizoid Man" to be honest.

In a track for track sense, Falling Satellites is definitely Frost's best album. "Tower Block" is just so amazing. Fantastic album, deserved a much bigger audience.

was fun to read discussion of that on the Proggressive Ears forum which is primarily made up of old men..."wait is this what dubstep is?"

the final suite is pretty nuts, really love the gnarly metal riffs they come up with

Just found out that tracks 12 and 13 are bonus tracks, makes sense. The vinyl has an extra instrumental.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05AFHeSk5N0

Frost have a new album out!

Just listened to it yesterday, it’s very good but like their others it’s kind of an endurance test.

The Police clearly seem to be an influence here, particularly Stewart Copeland. It picks up where “Synchronicity 2” left off. Definitely gonna cop the vinyl if I can

Been trying to sample some Frost on Spotify, it's just not clicking for me at all. I love Wobbler though, def one of my favorite more recent prog discoveries.

The drumming on the track about the invisible boy is really fantastic. Is this the first time they've used so many different drummers? 3 different people.

Recent (old) discovery, kinda what 90s Porcupine Tree would have sounded like if SW was a better singer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAHP1Ivb4fY

Don't know if anyone around here still listens to Haken, they've moved pretty far from pure prog by this point, but the new one is... interesting. Some of the best songs they've written since The Mountain, imho, but others that are just flat out embarrassing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBz9V0ZTfrE

Have I posted this elsewhere? I have no idea how many of the bands mentioned are actually prog, I only know who a few of them are but the channel is mostly about that kind of music.

Thank god, I thought this was going to be the "jazz isn't black music actually" prog youtuber guy