The Great ILX Gun Control Debate

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those arrows were for TOMBOT, btw

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:10 (seventeen years ago) link

(Actually, I do think that they were operational, because I seem to remember him using one to fire a pumpkin or something.)

― jaymc, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:11 (seventeen years ago) link

Some people who own multiple guns are collectors, pure and simple. I would venture to say that the desire to collect guns can come from many sources. There are certainly the militia types out there, but there are also people that are avid hunters, people who are into military history, people who enjoy the aesthetics of guns, and simply people that for whatever reason are simply interested in and enjoy them.

All hardcore collectors are seen as somewhat "off" to the general public, but being a gun collector does carry with it a higher level of scrutiny than other things due to the controversial nature of what they are into. Still, statements like

And I really do wonder about the thing everyone's been asking Roger, the thing people always want to ask people with multiple guns, which is something like: what are you expecting? A home invasion? Mob violence? Post-apocalyptic survivalist free-for-all? The emergence of a totalitarian horror? Most of the potential answers tend to be kind of anti-society on some level or another.

do make the argument more acidic than it needs to be, and do show a certain problematic bias that makes these arguments more difficult.

xxxxxxxxxxposts, and probably not vital anymore, but I spent a long time typing it.

― John Justen, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:13 (seventeen years ago) link

survivalist stockpiling is something I am not familiar with! I guess that's my point, that I know plenty of "gun nuts" but genuinely don't suspect any of them of being any more bonkers than my one friend's dad with the basement full of like 50 guitars or my other pal who amassed a boatload of antique synths and drum machines or dude who started buying $300 editions of books on ebay

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:14 (seventeen years ago) link

I would also like a cannon as the squirrels in the tree outside my bedroom woke me up this morning and MUST BE DEALT WITH.

― John Justen, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:15 (seventeen years ago) link

being a gun collector does carry with it a higher level of scrutiny than other things due to the controversial nature of what they are into.

who would've thought that collecting things designed to kill people would invite more scrutiny than collecting baseball cards or comic books

― and what, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:16 (seventeen years ago) link

nabisco, I think the argument about experience with and exposure to guns is directed mostly at the Freudians on this thread who have been screeching about the obvious pathology of the gun owner.

― Fluffy Bear Hearts Rainbows, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:17 (seventeen years ago) link

guys my friends made a CARROT gun in college: same basic design as a PVC potato cannon, but with a small bore bit of metal piping and a piezo trigger. it could throw a baby carrot through drywall like no-one's business.

xp FB, yes

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:17 (seventeen years ago) link

John, the problem is that Roger is a big cock and no one feels the need to be overly polite when talking to him.

― HI DERE, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:18 (seventeen years ago) link

clearly if other students had been allowed to build their own carrot cannons they could have stopped this madman

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:19 (seventeen years ago) link

how did this thread manage to regress into the stone age overnight?

ps roger who's the mongoloid now?

― moonship journey to baja, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:19 (seventeen years ago) link

how would a piezo trigger work with one of these things?

― kingfish, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:25 (seventeen years ago) link

it's just a barbeque piezoelectric trigger

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:27 (seventeen years ago) link

that's the same thing I think kingfish was calling a "lantern igniter"

can we just standardize on "grill tit"

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:31 (seventeen years ago) link

ok deal

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:32 (seventeen years ago) link

http://www.texasfrightmareweekend.com/images/savini.jpg

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:34 (seventeen years ago) link

Ah, true, but there are the two different ignition sources: you do have your twisty-knob thingee(what my dad used)

http://www.coleman.com/coleman/images/products/829B705T_70.jpg

vs the piezo bbq tit

http://img.tradekey.com/images/uploadedimages/products/5/3/A147187-20060313090153.jpg

If personal experience is any indication, the piezo is the better solution, as the twisty spark igniter would easily get covered in hairspray.

― kingfish, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:36 (seventeen years ago) link

oh we're talking grill tits here, for sure.

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:36 (seventeen years ago) link

no we're talking DOGTITS

― Mr. Que, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:39 (seventeen years ago) link

Damn dog, where do you get grill tits anyway?

SNAP: u bitch

― HI DERE, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:39 (seventeen years ago) link

I'm just curious, is there anyone here who will argue that a gun is not an inherently dangerous thing?

― Fluffy Bear Hearts Rainbows, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:41 (seventeen years ago) link

An unloaded gun with ammo seperately stored is not an inherently dangerous thing.

― John Justen, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:42 (seventeen years ago) link

http://www.netsport-magazine.com/images/bicep.jpg

GUN CONTROL NOW

― HI DERE, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:43 (seventeen years ago) link

back to something tombot said - the big difference between a basement of guitars and a basement of guns is that should there be a break-in the guitars have slightly less potential to case carnage elsewhere later on.

mah! xpostois

― The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:43 (seventeen years ago) link

I meant to add /pedantic response] to my answer but you people are too fast for me.

― John Justen, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:44 (seventeen years ago) link

it depends on what they do with the guitars.

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:47 (seventeen years ago) link

Wait, Fluffy, look: I basically agree with you / Tom / John about normal collectory ways to be interested in guns, but you can't entirely shield that from people wondering or speculating about why. When people collect Precious Moments figurines, we call them big dorks. When people collect used panties from around the internet, we call them perverts. When people drive Hummers and smoke huge cigars, we joke that they have tiny penises. And so if you happen to collect deadly weapons, fired or bladed -- and especially if your interest is specifically in their deadliness* -- you're kinda gonna have to deal with people making assumptions about your interests in force, power, death, etc., right? Because we all know that the guitar collector is interested in MUSIC, not just the guitar as an object; and there's no reason for us to suddenly suspend that equivalency with guns.

(* = I guess I'm referring to the difference between a "can you believe the stopping power on this bad boy" collection versus a "this non-functional musket was actually used in the war of 1812!" collection.)

― nabisco, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:48 (seventeen years ago) link

Because we all know that the guitar collector is interested in MUSIC, not just the guitar as an object

but this statement isn't actually true.

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:49 (seventeen years ago) link

yeah i had a roommate who owned a les paul that he claimed he was never going to play and he said he was going to sell for lots of money

― Mr. Que, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:50 (seventeen years ago) link

Well if we're all going to be giant point-missing pedants, let's note that one Les Paul does not constitute a collection.

― nabisco, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:51 (seventeen years ago) link

true. but it was LITA FORD's LES PAUL

― Mr. Que, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:51 (seventeen years ago) link

This isn't pedantic at all. Most hardcore guitar collectors are specifically interested in the guitar as object/investment, and the same can be attributed to many, if not most gun collectors.

― John Justen, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:52 (seventeen years ago) link

An unloaded gun with ammo seperately stored is not an inherently dangerous thing.

Why would one keep a gun under those conditions for the purpose of home protection?

― Fluffy Bear Hearts Rainbows, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:53 (seventeen years ago) link

yeah I mean how many people on ILM actually give a shit about records? clearly only one or two at best

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:54 (seventeen years ago) link

A bazooka with separately stored rocket-propelled grenades is not an inherently dangerous thing.

― Fluffy Bear Hearts Rainbows, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:55 (seventeen years ago) link

let's note that one Les Paul does not constitute a collection.

yeah, it ain't no big thing

― kingfish, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:56 (seventeen years ago) link

...okay, i think the idea that a gun stored apart from the ammo is still an effective home safety device (lol) is rooted in the presumption that you'll hear the dangerous gun-toting burglar (most aren't) before you actually confront them, giving you time to lock and load.

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:56 (seventeen years ago) link

i love the fact that if you tell nabisco he is batshit wrong about something it's "pedantic," as if we're the ones writing 7 paragraph missives about things we're totally unfamiliar with.

i've known several people who don't really care THAT much about music or much ability to actually play with guitar collections, my dad is one of them. he also has a gun collection! he's got one or two for his occasional hunting, and then a couple that are just object value, i don't even think he owns ammo for them.

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:57 (seventeen years ago) link

Well, most people who are keeping guns for the purpose of home protection are not expecting to rely on their lightning-fast reflexes in a time of crisis. By the time the imaginary armed criminal has suprised you in your home, you are most likely fucked, loaded gun or not.

xpost yep, what RW said.

― John Justen, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:58 (seventeen years ago) link

i mean i dunno maybe like 5 les pauls etc aren't really a collection either, maybe we're only talking guys with like 20 of 'em and that's what i'm just missing here. i'm sure it's something.

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:58 (seventeen years ago) link

Again, most gun owners really aren't angling for some quick draw McGraw fantasy, srsly.

― John Justen, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:59 (seventeen years ago) link

Nabisco, there are collectors who are interested in the subject matter of their collections and there are collectors who are not. Your point is valid for the first group and invalid for the second.

Also DO NOT WANT to surprise fucking from armed criminal.

― HI DERE, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:59 (seventeen years ago) link

Yeah, that's what you always say.

― John Justen, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 18:00 (seventeen years ago) link

dan you are more polite than i am.

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Wednesday, 18 April 2007 18:00 (seventeen years ago) link

I don't know, I'm feeling polite today!

― HI DERE, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 18:00 (seventeen years ago) link

(I didn't even get into the collector phenomenon where people who originally are interested in the subject matter of their collections get subsumed by their interest in the act of collecting; see for example anyone with more than 100 CDs.)

(Yeah I did just call ALL OF Y'ALL out)

― HI DERE, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 18:02 (seventeen years ago) link

"HI DERE" and "John Justen" have both been sockpuppeted for the purposes for injecting confusion into your virtual society. By tomorrow, both will return to non-sensical all caps statements or image posts as previously arranged.

― John Justen, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 18:03 (seventeen years ago) link

http://www.nrastore.com/nra/images/detail/526detail.jpg

― ghost rider, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 18:09 (seventeen years ago) link

Nabisco, I really don't get the assumption that because gun knowledge would have no immediate real-life application, it's inherently valueless. I've never been the victim of a crime, and I agree with most people in this thread who are saying that having a gun would be utterly worthless in the vast majority of dangerous situations. That being said, I did gain a very real appreciation for something I didn't previously understand and learned that a typical white/urban/liberal schmuck can handle a firearm just as readily as a gangbanger or right-wing hunting freak or whatever other cliche comes to mind. That does not make me more comfortable with the amount of guns out there or most of their real-world applications, but to come back to something River Wolf said before, holding a gun in your hand makes you understand that it's just a machine, and that what you do with it is a seperate conversation. If you're really sure that you wouldn't gain anything from the experience of handling a gun then that's cool, but I'm not sure how you can be certain of that.

― call all destroyer, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 18:09 (seventeen years ago) link

And so if you happen to collect deadly weapons, fired or bladed -- and especially if your interest is specifically in their deadliness* -- you're kinda gonna have to deal with people making assumptions about your interests in force, power, death, etc., right?

Ok, two examples I can think of collectors:

1. My father collects 'cowboy action' guns - single-action revolvers, old lever guns and a couple of double-barrel 'coach' shotguns. He has other, modern, guns but those are pretty much what he buys on a (too-regular, if you're my mother) basis. His interests are sport (cowboy action competitions are huge), target shooting and history/aesthetics. The last rifle he bought was a near-replica of the buffalo rifle from some movie (Quigley Down Under) he loves.

2. I don't know if I'm a collector per se, but I like older double-action revolvers (think film noir, Dashiell Hammett), 1911s (think The Wild Bunch) and WWII and before military-surplus rifles. Again, aesthetics, history and the guns as objects.

Why don't I just own a single .22 for target shooting and a bunch of non-firing replicas? One completely irrational reason: the bigger calibers are much, much more fun to shoot.

In my mind it's not that different from people who collect guitars (as noted) or modernist furniture or spend a shitload of money on customizing their car. (With the obvious exception that guns can kill and need to be kept in safes and so on.)

There are, undoubtedly, people (like Roger) who are obsessed with the power they now wield, but that's never been a factor with anyone I know who shoots.

― milo z, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 18:11 (seventeen years ago) link

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