I generally just speak in terms of sensitivity to target audience.
I would place this in the province of rhetoric rather than grammar, and within the bounds of rhetoric prescriptive rules can be quite valuable. If there were a board called I Love Rhetoric I would be all over it.
― Aimless, Thursday, 20 August 2015 00:48 (eight years ago) link
Yeah, that's pretty much what David Foster Wallace says about Bryan Garner here. Wallace was sometimes kind of unhinged about this topic (I say that with affection), but the central argument is that A Dictionary of Modem American Usage was rhetorical in its approach. Not saying "this is the rule because I said so," but saying "if you want a certain kind of person to take you seriously, follow these guidelines."
I make my living by writing persuasive prose for generally conservative audiences. As a result, I have to cultivate a somewhat formal register. And I have to follow "rules" that I know are often pretty silly and baseless.
― persona non gratin (Ye Mad Puffin), Thursday, 20 August 2015 01:09 (eight years ago) link
Me, too, which is actually pretty satisfying because it's a good outlet for my erstwhile grammar dorkery and I can get my prescriptivist ya yas out pitching fits about Oxford commas and the like in a safe space for pedantry.
― carl agatha, Thursday, 20 August 2015 01:26 (eight years ago) link
I really try to avoid grammar/punctuation pedantry but one thing that always bugs me is "that" instead of "who"; e.g. in this headline: http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/880-five-women-in-hip-hop-that-deserve-their-own-biopics/. I don't even know if it's wrong per se but it always irritates me.
― Immediate Follower (NA), Thursday, 27 August 2015 19:07 (eight years ago) link
can't solve that problem but lately been using what instead of who/that to comedic effect
― Bouncy Castlevania (Will M.), Thursday, 27 August 2015 19:09 (eight years ago) link
you should always use 'who' with peoplethat's a rule i can get behind because it distinguishes people as special, and i find that an amusing grammatical narcissism
― La Lechera, Thursday, 27 August 2015 19:10 (eight years ago) link
That's not what we teach
― Let's go, FIFA! (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Thursday, 27 August 2015 19:19 (eight years ago) link
here who can be restrictive or nonrestrictive; that is for restrictive clauses, which is for nonrestrictive
― La Lechera, Thursday, 27 August 2015 19:25 (eight years ago) link
xp. you mean who's not that we teach
― you too could be called a 'Star' by the Compliance Unit (jim in glasgow), Thursday, 27 August 2015 19:27 (eight years ago) link
which that who we teach that which we teach
― La Lechera, Thursday, 27 August 2015 19:28 (eight years ago) link
feel like there's an epidemic recently of ppl who are never phased by anything
― mookieproof, Friday, 28 August 2015 00:48 (eight years ago) link
I hear there's a big demand for that talent in the torture and execution industries.
― Aimless, Friday, 28 August 2015 01:45 (eight years ago) link
http://www.theguardian.com/books/booksblog/2015/oct/06/steven-pinker-alleged-rules-of-writing-superstitions
― Let's go, FIFA! (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Tuesday, 6 October 2015 12:15 (eight years ago) link
good writing depends an ability to imagine a generic reader
― kinder, Tuesday, 6 October 2015 13:44 (eight years ago) link
sounds like a good way to write a generic book
― on entre O.K. on sort K.O. (man alive), Tuesday, 6 October 2015 14:51 (eight years ago) link
that is so wrong I can't even begin
― Aimless, Tuesday, 6 October 2015 16:30 (eight years ago) link
I mean tbf it's probably not bad advice for someone trying to write mass audience non-fiction.
― on entre O.K. on sort K.O. (man alive), Tuesday, 6 October 2015 16:56 (eight years ago) link
Personally, I only write for left-handed dental hygienists with Swedish ancestry. Everyone else can go suck it. For extra obscurity I generally write a first draft in pig latin, then have it translated into hieroglyphics and then into Swahili.
Perhaps if "generic" is the part that bothers you, why not substitute "ideal"?
Or just "intended."
― forbidden fruitarian (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 6 October 2015 17:11 (eight years ago) link
I submit there is a world of difference between "generic" and "intended".
― Aimless, Tuesday, 6 October 2015 17:24 (eight years ago) link
Railing against the split infinitive "rule" at this point is almost as dusty as the rule. However, generally speaking, careful usage is an indicator of, though by no means inextricable from, careful thought. "Entering the room, it was nice to see my old friends" may not be unclear, but "Entering the room, Jessica came into my view" is -- is the speaker entering the room or Jessica? Following the usage "rule" prevents that kind of sloppiness.
― on entre O.K. on sort K.O. (man alive), Tuesday, 6 October 2015 17:35 (eight years ago) link
Agreed (to both Aimless and man alive)
― forbidden fruitarian (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 6 October 2015 17:50 (eight years ago) link
is the speaker entering the room or Jessica
wait, LOL
― on entre O.K. on sort K.O. (man alive), Tuesday, 6 October 2015 17:53 (eight years ago) link
I rest my case.
I find this bit irritating:
Any competent copy editor can turn a passage that is turgid, opaque, and filled with grammatical errors into a passage that is turgid, opaque, and free of grammatical errors.
A good copy editor can (and should) also keep it from being turgid and opaque. Or, if the passage cannot be rescued, recommend its deletion or query until the meaning is clear.
As man alive notes, these pop rule-refutations are themselves ancient. Miss Thistlebottom's Hobgoblins is my age (we were both published in 1971). I guess this may be news to some readers out there, but no editors or writers are surprised by them in the year two thousand fifteen.
― forbidden fruitarian (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 6 October 2015 18:02 (eight years ago) link
yeah i'm not sure who pinker is railing against. i actually find myself agreeing w/ him much of the time, but he seems to fuel his own writing by heaping a lot of straw men on the fire.
― wizzz! (amateurist), Tuesday, 6 October 2015 18:18 (eight years ago) link
imo things have shifted over the last ten to fifteen years - it might be my internet bubble, but a (loosely) descriptivist or usage-driven version of advice for clarity feels on top right now. Pinker's trailing this larger shift, & it seems fine - having a noisy pop academic on side is useful because the straw-men really are out there - useless usage rules seem to be extraordinarily sticky.
btw I don't disagree in principle about dangling participles – I'll only leave them if I'm editing to a pretty informal style - but I don't think "Entering the room, Jessica came into my view" is unclear. Jessica is entering the room.
― woof, Tuesday, 6 October 2015 18:51 (eight years ago) link
& that's not because of a style-guide rule, but more because of descriptive grammar: the participle latches on to the subject of the sentence; with a dummy subject, it attaches to the implied speaker. (not a linguist, that's a rough guess at the working rule)
― woof, Tuesday, 6 October 2015 18:55 (eight years ago) link
"As she entered the room, Jessica came into the room" is 1000x as clear.
― I might like you better if we Yelped together (Phil D.), Tuesday, 6 October 2015 18:57 (eight years ago) link
otm
― woof, Tuesday, 6 October 2015 19:04 (eight years ago) link
editing non-writers in the past couple years, i saw an ENORMOUS amount of '[ me ] arriving at the location, the associate [ i.e. someone else] greeted me warmly'
― j., Tuesday, 6 October 2015 19:13 (eight years ago) link
― I might like you better if we Yelped together (Phil D.), Tuesday, October 6, 2015 2:57 PM (19 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Ugh, see, everyone needs an editor.
― I might like you better if we Yelped together (Phil D.), Tuesday, 6 October 2015 19:17 (eight years ago) link
let's get back to the topic of entering Jessica
― forbidden fruitarian (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 6 October 2015 19:21 (eight years ago) link
"Entering the room, Jessica came into my view" is 100% clear if you assume the writer is writing with proper usage. That's my point. If you don't stick to that rule, then you can wind up writing one thing when you mean the other.
― on entre O.K. on sort K.O. (man alive), Tuesday, 6 October 2015 20:52 (eight years ago) link
I mean in Pinker's example it works ok because the "it" doesn't represent a specific thing or object, just an idiomatic way of saying that he felt happy. 95% of the time, it actually would be unclear to write that sentence without the subject of the sentence following the comma.
― on entre O.K. on sort K.O. (man alive), Tuesday, 6 October 2015 20:57 (eight years ago) link
After entering the room, who came into my view but Jessica!
― Aimless, Tuesday, 6 October 2015 22:16 (eight years ago) link
http://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/comma-queen-spelling-insurance?mbid=social_twitter
this woman regularly infuriates me
― k3vin k., Saturday, 21 November 2015 19:33 (eight years ago) link
"true, ensure and insure mean different things, but we use insure for everything, why because the style guide some says to use the 'in-' form for every 'en-/in-" prefix, well that is not counting this long list of exceptions"
― k3vin k., Saturday, 21 November 2015 20:38 (eight years ago) link
DIE
― k3vin k., Saturday, 21 November 2015 20:39 (eight years ago) link
Wait, so this person has been proofreading for the country's leading high-middlebrow rag since 1978 and still doesn't get the difference between these two words? How can this be?
― Futuristic Bow Wow (thewufs), Saturday, 21 November 2015 21:16 (eight years ago) link
i think she understands the difference, she just defers to the style guide
― k3vin k., Saturday, 21 November 2015 21:24 (eight years ago) link
Help! What the hell is the plural of Lopez? Par example: Mr. and Mrs. Lopez bought a care. The Lopezs (Lopez's?) love their new car.
I used to know this shit but then I went to grad school, which has made me dumber.
― mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Tuesday, 1 December 2015 20:53 (eight years ago) link
http://articles.latimes.com/2012/may/19/sports/la-sp-oly-taekwondo-lopez-20120520
lopezes?
― k3vin k., Tuesday, 1 December 2015 20:55 (eight years ago) link
Lopezes
― La Lechuza (La Lechera), Tuesday, 1 December 2015 20:55 (eight years ago) link
Los Lopez
― La Lechuza (La Lechera), Tuesday, 1 December 2015 20:56 (eight years ago) link
I would actually love to use Los Lopez, but Lopezes it shall be. Thanks! I tried writing it with the -es at first and it just looked so damn wrong. I do very muchprefer the grammarians of ILX to the ding-dongs of Google. Muchos gracias.
― mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Tuesday, 1 December 2015 21:01 (eight years ago) link
Now would anyone like to finish writing this paper about Los Lopez for me
― mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Tuesday, 1 December 2015 21:03 (eight years ago) link
had a similar brain hurdle with the plural of "yes" today but it was for a comment on a blog spot so i wrote yesses (yeses? yes’s? yeezus?) and moved on.
― nerd shit (Will M.), Tuesday, 1 December 2015 21:19 (eight years ago) link
Along those lines, copyedited someone this morning who referred to the Peoples' Republic of China.
I mean, you could almost convince yourself that's right, even though it's not. Much like Communism.
― pplains, Tuesday, 1 December 2015 21:28 (eight years ago) link
Is there any implication of events being related if you use the word 'subsequently'? Or am I conflating it with 'consequently'? Someone's drafted something similar to the following but it seems off to me:"We wrote to you setting out your situation and explaining that we would do X. Subsequently, we did not receive any objection."
Maybe the word is in the wrong place? I've looked at it for too long now and it's become meaningless
― kinder, Saturday, 19 March 2016 15:36 (eight years ago) link
I think "subsequently" is used correctly there, in terms of its meaning, but it sounds officious and maybe a little passive-aggressive.
"Since writing, we have not received any objection" or something like that would have a more neutral tone.
― Brad C., Saturday, 19 March 2016 16:19 (eight years ago) link