Depression and what it's really like

Had my first session with the shrink yesterday. We will see how this goes. He already told me that it seems like I use my fatalastic/nihilistic view of life/death/the universe to protect myself from finding out why I can't experience happiness or discover meaning in things. Uplifting!

I don't know if it helps, but the trick for me has been to realize that a nihilistic worldview and happiness/meaning are not necessarily mutually exclusive. It's possible to both believe that nothing in the universe has any inherent meaning or purpose or value and also to consciously instill your own sense of value on people/relationships/places/things/interactions/states of being and find happiness from the presence of those valued things in your life. Also, cling tenaciously to your recursive layers of desire to be well. When I wasn't well, and in that moment didn't particularly care about being well, I knew that there was some part of me that wanted to want to be well because it was a preoccupation on some level. Seeking help is a good sign. Want to want to be well until you want to be well until you're well.

When you hate yourself, you're kind of amazed that others might care for you, and you and up punishing them for this flaw in their judgments. A very pernicious cycle.

sounds about right

http://nymag.com/thecut/2015/09/ask-polly-how-do-i-help-my-selfish-friend.html

writer asks for help dealing w/ depressed friend who can't be helped

columnist focuses on the innate core character 'some people' supposedly have

I'm a big fan of long-term friend loyalty. And I'm a big believer in talking things out. I've always had faith that you can sit down with an old friend, air your grievances, and come away feeling more committed to the friendship. In general, I think friends give up on each other too easily, before they have a chance to listen and be understood.

But at some point I think we're all forced to accept that some people are just too selfish to tolerate. It's not just that they never give back the same attention and understanding that you give them. It's not just that they blame you every single time you step a millimeter outside of the highly subjective boundaries of what they personally consider acceptable behavior. It's not just that, when you do push them to listen or support you a little, they almost immediately shift the focus back to their own problems. It's not even that they become defensive when you dare to suggest a new path or new perspective, or that they take every suggestion as such a personal insult that they feel the need to lash out with personal insults of their own in response. All of these things are irritating, mind you. But the worst part is their total lack of gratitude.

never comes back to depression, never considers the possibility that depression in particular saps your feelings of gratitude and damages the possibility of feeling any at all

i dunno. i don't really consider lashing out/throwing tantrums/being self-centered at happy hour symptoms of depression so much as symptoms of being an asshole. and even if depression *is* the cause, it doesn't make too much difference to the friend who's being treated like shit

it's easier to blame someone for being selfish than to be empathetic about their depression, especially when you can just gloss over the particulars of said 'friend's' situation

also assholes are perfectly fine IMO so long as there's a way for you to tell them very directly that you think they're being an asshole

The letter writer expressly says her friend has become "depressed over the past year", then goes on to describe her behavior. After reading how her friend is acting, I'd say the letter writer was using "depressed" very loosely to mean her friend is deeply unhappy. From what I read her unhappiness doesn't look like real depression at all, but rather like someone who is full of barely suppressed anger.

hard to say from the details we're given. not liking this columnist, but I admit this part rings true:

When you grow up in the company of someone with a severe personality disorder and you love that person in spite of everything, you feel haunted by a need to protect that person from reality. This is the very definition of unhealthy, but it's such a powerful force in so many of our lives.

Well, I think my plan to alienate my friends is working.

Perception undoubtedly clouded but I'm positive I'm not pleasant to be around right now.

you could tell your friends that you know you are unpleasant to be around right now, and you wish you could do something about it, but it's an uphill battle and could they be patient with you.

i feel like i make that excuse far too often

just remember that what you are doing is offering an explanation and asking for understanding. the actual excusing is done by your friends, not you. and if they are willing to excuse you and be patient it is because they care about you as a person. there's nothing bad or wrong about that.

of course

but there's also the dim awareness that these people are exhausted with you; they've mentally already placed you under the file labeled "problems" and have proceeded to distance themselves

this realization is painful not so much for the loss of a friend, but the understanding that the supposed "bond" was always tenuous. the sense that one is replaceable or superfluous.

that may be true, but bonds of friendship are still willfully made, i say optimistically

the supposed "bond" was always tenuous

more like the bond slowly weakens unless it is renewed at intervals. if it has become impossible for you to act as a friend then only the strongest of bonds will survive that forever. this is life.

yeah... it takes a lot of work

depression hasn't really affected my friendships, probably bc i don't feel there's much to say about it in my situation; and also bc mine isn't tied up with any circumstantial stuff like employment/finances/loss/etc. and i have my husband to unload on. but it's stopped me from making new friends.

so keep in mind that your friend/s probably have other people depending on them for a lot of emotional support, esp partners and family members that you might not know about.

When you hate yourself, you're kind of amazed that others might care for you, and you and up punishing them for this flaw in their judgments. A very pernicious cycle.

yes. there's related self-hate cycle re friends/ loved ones in my experience-- which is about self-punishment, in form of self-excommunication

of course one has enough self-awareness to realize that (especially when this applies to established friends) this hurts them (not just oneself), but this fact-- the fact that one is a bad friend, hurtful to one's friends-- only contributes to spiral of self-loathing & guilt & unworthiness, which intensifies drive toward self-punishing withdrawal (as if one was creature unfit for human society)

cross-reference to introvert thread: part of the insidiousness of introvert/depressive combo is that this kind of self-punishment (e.g. entailing solitude) is not (prima facie) that painful for the introvert (compared to non-introvert); it's relatively comfortable exile/ prison-- which lures one further into extended & ever-deepening spiral/ cycle of self-punishing incommunicado exile

of course one has enough self-awareness to realize that (especially when this applies to established friends) this hurts them (not just oneself), but this fact-- the fact that one is a bad friend, hurtful to one's friends-- only contributes to spiral of self-loathing & guilt & unworthiness, which intensifies drive toward self-punishing withdrawal (as if one was creature unfit for human society)

Feeling all of this, although my own present take is a much more muted self-loathing. Largely because the asocial ramparts have held for so long that most people have stopped trying at this point.

drash, that post is painfully otm, but in doing some algebra, I think right now that quarantining myself will hurt them less than emotionally vomiting all over them. But yeah, doesn't mean that I'm also not meting out punishment at the same time.

Two things that are giving me hope today: had a happy memory with a friend pop into my head randomly, and it felt so nice, albeit briefly, and that I'm going to see a psychiatrist later today (I'm already seeing another therapist).

hope all goes well with that leee

i havent gone back into therapy yet, but im feeling considerably more stable of late than i was most of the summer, and it seems like it might be sustainable. (still plan on retrying therapy though, i've already learned my lesson about white-knuckling)

almost ready to quit life ... almost

i dunno, man -- it's my understanding that you are singularly grebt

tallies with the records I have on my screen tbh

that may be - tho i doubt it - but it's just been such a slog lately, just going through the motions, no joy in anything

"The letter writer expressly says her friend has become "depressed over the past year", then goes on to describe her behavior. After reading how her friend is acting, I'd say the letter writer was using "depressed" very loosely to mean her friend is deeply unhappy. From what I read her unhappiness doesn't look like real depression at all, but rather like someone who is full of barely suppressed anger."

i take strong exception to your implication that someone who is angry about their situation doesn't have "real depression". when i don't have the strength to leave the apartment, when i have to spend a tremendous amount of energy fighting off intrusive thoughts, when i do everything "right" but feel terrible regardless, that makes me angry. i don't find "miserable" and "pissed-off" to be mutually exclusive states.

it strikes me that there's perhaps a parallel to how we treat poor people. shame and self-blame is ok, but if they start making trouble, if they start lashing out about their situation, we all stand in line to condemn them. personally i view depression as a sort of emotional poverty.

Hi 5, tlg. You are grate and you'll always have ilxors on your side.

yes, certainly

yep.

co-sign

rushomancy, let me offer my apologies. In no way did I intend to belittle your misery when I said that being deeply unhappy and angry with one's life are, to my mind, different types of misery than depression. If you identify with the friend who was described in that letter, then I can see how you would also take my opinion as applying to you personally. I am quite willing to retract my statement and allow that you are suffering from depression. You have my sympathy regardless.

ah, don't worry about me. i'm getting by, and i'm not personally insulted by what you said or anything- just didn't accord with my experience is all.

Went out with friends and had a slow motion breakdown.

sounds hype

Past the worst of it only this morning.

Afraid of what the wreckage looks like.

:( sorry to hear that leee

q:

has anyone read anything good on depression as a self-harm disorder? not as in cutting and such, but just as a generalized act/mode of action/living undertaken by the sufferer despite its being harmful to the sufferer? emotional/affective/social self-harm.

i was reading a bit of philosophical ethics focused on traditional notions of the irrationality of self-harm, which is why i thought to ask. i suppose some cbt-related stuff might fit in here, though that's not necessarily all i have in mind (i hope, never dug that stuff).

Having felt like stabbing myself, I would say that it would've been a way to distract me from the emotions that I couldn't control. It nearly felt like a physical itch, too.

self-sabotage definitely a recurring theme in depression
though i also have some... questionable marks

At work, feel like sobbing.

:(

i'm a crazypants. seriously.
i'm new, but i've already had a couple minor problems on ilx. i lurked for ten years actually, and began to feel creepy about it and decided i should just start posting. i haven't figured out my posting style yet, but i'd like to be sincere if possible.
i'm gonna blow off some steam for a while in this post, but i know i'm helpless -- so, no one should worry about me, and i will normally keep my madness to myself.

i know this is the depression thread, and i'm depressed now, but only for the last few months. . .
i don't like talking about this when i have to talk about this, and i wish there were another thread for it and other mental health issues:

i was diagnosed with ptsd, last july.
i've had two stays in mental hospitals this year. and also, another time a couple months ago, my academic advisor drove me to the psychiatric ward again too, but i talked them into letting me out that night.
the psychiatrists told my family i had schizophrenia at first, but after a month of observing me and interviewing me, they figured out what was going on -- i agree with the diagnosis, now.

you ever stay there, in the mental hospital. i kind of liked it. i just layed in bed and read all day, every day. i made sure i had a few new yorkers and my favorite books for my second stay, a couple months ago.
sometimes you wander around there, you know. the lingo: "so, what are you in for?" i'd just look away; "they told me i have ptsd".
"thank you for you service, sir!" ::handshake:: and, i'm confused about why we're shaking hands.
"i wasn't in service."
"oh"

whatever your politics, i think it's easy to admire the courageousness of people that actually put their lives on the line for a cause that they believe in, however misguided. pause. grant me that.
i have to say that, because i'm about to take something away from them:
i just wish ptsd wasn't completely synonymous with military service.

it isn't really like depression.
sadness and depression are not the same thing. sadness is a deep feeling. depression is a lack of a feeling.
1 day out of 10 is good for me.
it's a lot of sadness, and anger, and confusion -- but, it isn't confusion. or, it was confusion for about 20 months, but i began to understand what happened, after about 20 months.
i don't know. i used to pace around my kitchen in my single apartment, for many hours every day, and i've probably thought about it for over a thousand hours or many more hours at this point.
i understand it now, so i don't have to do that anymore.
about the confusion: it isn't confusion. it's more like 13 disparate facts i have to keep reassembling every day, because they don't add up, and i need to keep arranging them until they almost do.

i can't really talk about what happened.

i'm depressed now, but, whatever a ptsd episode is, they're becoming slightly less frequent.
cbt and effexor, paxil, neurontin, risperidone, all of which i take every day, don't do a damn thing.

i had to tell some of my professors and advisors what happened after i began to display "odd" behavior at school.
i'm harmless. i'm living with my mom, now.
i had to drop out of an elite university. . . one of the best in the world. i had it made. i had straight As until fall 2013

(by the way: i don't normally have the energy to post thoughtfully/intelligently, so i might leave ilx soon. i normally don't have the energy to brush my teeth anymore, which i haven't done in three or four days now.)

i'll live.
i have 0 interest in living, but i can probably never actually commit suicide, for i refuse to traumatize my widowed mother that way.

it's just an unfixable problem. it always comes back, and i wish i could do something.

it probably sounds like i should go to the hospital, but, honestly... i've had a couple psychiatric stays this year... they were really stupid. i mean, they were like vacations, and all i did was read in bed all day, which was kind of therapeutic, especially since i knew that within those walls, i was safe from what had happened since there was truly nothing i could do about it in there, but. . .
please forgive me. . . all of the other patients are just kind of "dumb", and the nurses treat me like i'm one of the others. i'm not special. my stays were nice. i just couldn't really achieve anything with nurses talking to me that way, though.

after what happened in fall 2013. . .
i don't know. my old neighbor called the police on me once because i was yelling late at night. . . but, when they showed up a few hours later, they just looked at me and said okay and walked away.

it's just lonely. i don't really have any support or any friends i can talk to. and, it scares people when you talk about mental illness and loneliness. people think of school shootings or 'taxi driver' or something. it isn't like that at all. i just space out and pace around a lot.

i made a girlfriend at my last hospital stay! we were like benny and joon! it was very romantic, like a movie. but, even though she was straight on her meds at the hospital, she has schizophrenia and religious delusions. i've hung out with her a couple of times since we were together at the hospital (we used to just hug all the time in the hospital), but she's worse now. she just makes me read the christian bible with her all night and she's too far gone. i'd go back to the hospital if i could just live there forever.

i just wish they'd give me benzos or lithium or something more. it makes me sick how they trust me -- i dress well and do well in public - no one takes this seriously, not even my family, even with my documentation. and i have nowhere to go now that i'm out of school, and i'm living in a small town now, and i'm very lonely.

fall 2013 was just bad. it was like the past kept changing, and there was nothing i could do.

I don't know you but I'm very sorry for your troubles and hope they ease. Have you ever reached out online on one of those psych forums? Maybe it would help to hear how other people deal.
Once again, truly sorry you are in so much pain. As someone has it big time in their family and has dealt with depression all my life, I empathize.

Same here. The loneliness is the worst. It's hard enough when you have a couple of people you CAN talk to. But please vent here as much as you need!!!

Same here as in i empathise, not that i claim to have your same experiences, i mean

One of my best friends has PTSD from stuff that happened when she was very young and it's horrible. I'm really sorry to hear that you're going through this.