Killing Joke - Classic Or Dud, Search And Destroy

We only try to stamp out criticism of KJ when it's ill thought out, based on unsubstantiated preconceptions and knowledge of only handful of their output. Come on, didn't you welcome the views of some people who actually know about the band? Didn't we encourage you, with some intelligent and well thought out commentary, to write more than three lines of comment yourselves. I counter that your little club here is ridiculously elitist, we welcome anyone with open arms as long as they have something to say about the World's best band...

Dr.C....why do you insist on being so seemingly bitter & utterly humorless? I don't believe anyone here said Killing Joke were devoid of influences. Listen closely and you can certainly here bits of Pere Ubu through Neu! and beyond. They were actually peers of PiL and Joy Division, and I'm sure there was some mutual influence/cross- polination all around. As to your earlier claim that they were/are "pomp-post-punk" to hopeless degrees, I'd sooner steer you in the direction of, say, WE ARE ALL PROSTITUES by Mark Stewart's POP GROUP for a more flagrant case of that particular affliction. Now THERE was a band that really let their music get lost in the message (although I still quite liked them, if truth be told). At the end of the day, this entire debate is rooted in taste, rendering it all a bit moot. Still, we Killing Joke fans protect our own,...hence our verbose vehemence. Personally speaking, I've nothing personal against anyone here, and we undoubtedly could have some very spirited debates over a few beers and both come out the wiser. I'm not out to make anyone a Killing Joke fan, but merely suggesting you give them another fair shake...as in my mind there is more to them than meets the eye..er..ear. As far as lambasting the KJ list ("the Gathering"), haven't you ever been a devoted fan of anything? Despite appearances, we're not all wide-eyed zealots (well,...not ALL of us anyway). As him from THE LAST LAUGH pointed out, I think we've jumped onto this list with such fervor because it's refreshing to spar with those of different opinions for a change. In any event, no hard feelings....although once again, if you plan to "dish out" critiscism, you best be prepared to "take it" as well.

As I said, I am open-minded enough to give KJ another spin. That was mainly because of DJ Martian's post, not anything to do with anything your posse's comments of yesterday, which descended into abuse pretty quickly.

Alex - your comments are interesting, I hadn't thought of The Pop Group, but good call.

Life is too short to give everyone a "fair shake". It's Killing Joke's job to make me WANT to give them a chance.

Patrick, please read my last reply again, if that does not convince you, then it is your loss. Pandemonium 1994 album, experience it ! If your not interested then that is your problem, just contribute to another thread of ILM! and leave it at that.

See? A semi-coherent, quasi-intelligent debate with an unapologetic Killing Joke fan *CAN* ensue! Let's see if we can perpetuate it without the use of sweeping superlatives or abusive tactics. I'd like to address the accusation of Killing Joke being "pompous" if I may. While it's irrefutably true that Killing Joke are no strangers to the odd, arguably ludicrous statement of supreme pretentiousness, it should be noted that abject humility and great music (specifically great rock'n'roll) have never happily co-existed. I certainly wouldn't tag the Rolling Stones, Iggy Pop, Led Zepplin, the Sex Pistols, Pink Floyd, U2, Jane's Addiction, REM, Smashing Pumpkins (or any other universally established rock warhorse) with the label "humble." I doubt Oasis, Blur or the Stone Roses would've made as big a dent in their respective periods of stardom and acclaim by being timid, self- deprecating and soft-spoken. While I'm not excusing Killing Joke's alledeged pomposity, I wouldn't make it the main plank of my campaign in damning them. Moreover, if one takes a stance that is thoroughly against the conventional perspective (as Jaz Coleman has for the majority of his career in the public eye), one will categorically be referred to as pompous or pretentious, merely for the arguable crime of harboring and expressing different ideas. To further expand on this point, just because Jaz Coleman possibly has a head-full of old testament-styled visions of the ever-impending apocalypse and some very specific concepts on how to deal with said global demise, that doesn't mean that all Killing Joke fans are equally rabid permaculturists with isolationist tendencies and a soft-spots for Alleister Crowley. One can recognize Jaz's tenuous grasp on sanity and still respect and enjoy his music. In fact, personally speaking, Jaz's unique world-view is part of the appeal of Killing Joke for me. I don't necessarily subscribe to his theories, but I find them pretty thought-provoking. Coupled with Geordie Walker's incredibly distinctive guitar (Killing Joke's signature, if you will), I found it to be a breath of fresh air when i first heard it (and have been listening ever since). I'd also like to point out that Killing Joke should never be lumped in as practitioners of solely "'violent intensity' ad infinitum." At the risk of belaboring a point, the band has expanded their sound over several albums beyond said style. They may be known for it, but should not be pigeon-holed for it. Lastly, in regards to someone's claim that Jaz sings with a "silly voice" on "Love Like Blood," it certainly sounds no sillier to these ears than, say, Perry Farrell's weedy, thin warble or Bono's hoary, histrionic bellow, but again...this is all relative.

I really, really do like this thread. Compulsively entertaining.

All I wanted to add -- my opinion having already been made clear -- is that whoever told them _Outside the Gate_ was another close to a good idea needs a talking-to.

And whoever mentioned Play Dead and Sex Gang Children as ripoffs -- oh, perhaps, but such *fun* ripoffs. I only discovered Play Dead recently, and they're quite enjoyable.

Rather, 'anything close.' Wish I could go back and edit on this thing. ;-)

Ok my dear INUKKO: I also like Democracy a lot, something a bit unusual as many Killing Joke fans don't like this album very much... I also think Democracy is better than Pandemonium, I don't get tired if listening it... You have to listen "Extremities, Dirt and Various Repressed Emotions": it's an excellent megapowerful CD. A good recomendation could be also "Laugh, I Nearly Bought One", a good compilation, that shows just a little of what Killing Joke is... I mean, there's a lot of great stuff that is not included on this comp!. You should give a listen to "Revelations", "Night Time" and their first one, named just "Killing Joke" (this is a must as an example of their innovative sound at the begining of the eighties).

You say you like '' Intellect '', I love it too, but I must warn you: you won't find anything similar. Killing Joke is a band under continous evolution. (Similar to Intellect??... maybe "Hollywood Babylon", awesome song incuded in the Showgirls soundtrack).

Killing Joke is a about social and political problems, but more than that is about joy and love to life... if you really give'em a listen --but a serious listen, not an easy ride in the stereo on your car or something like that-- you will find that Killing Joke is charged with a unique and very special vibe and power... I'm sure you won't regret.

Regards

Right! another K.J. fan

Javier "La broma mortal de Mexico"

Well, well, well Dr C, you and others seem taken aback by our defense of Killing Joke but believe me we are not, as some have suggested, a bunch of neandethal zealots. How many gigs did you go to last year ? I could name you hundreds of bands and artists whose vinyls, tapes & CDs I cherish but there's something special about Killing Joke IMHO.

Since the mighty Joke have not toured the UK for 6 years, maybe we're all suffering from PMT (pre manic tension) ! Inukko admitted only hearing post 1994 work - there is a treasure trove of stuff to indulge yourself in - go ahead, enjoy.

And as for the objection to the robust defence, abuse !?! Those living in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. We're not the elitest ones. Honest.

dr c gives himself away. first he describes kj as "Hopeless. Pomp- post-punk at it's most preposterous. Dud." then he says "I am open- minded enough to give KJ another spin. That was mainly because of DJ Martian's post." trying to make a division between someone who gets his approval as an ILM regular and alex's "posse". (The Gathering, a kj mailing list - not a fanclub - run by a fan for people who want to talk about the band.)

saying things like "do you get a monthly magazine and a little badge for joining?" (um... no), "Have they gone yet?", continually trying to emphasise some sort of 'us-and-them' situation. "Do these people roam the internet stamping out any critisism of KJ?" - no. someone who reads ILM is also a member of the gathering. (can you reconcile those two apparent contradictions?) they sent through a link to this page. quite simple really.

not that i'm defending everything said by the various members of the gathering. some of it was pretty moronic. but that's the point - i shouldn't have to defend it. try to see us a individuals, please. don't lump us all into one category.

if you choose to describe kj as "hopeless" then you should expect some people to get a bit pissed off, y'know? i'm sorry, but they _are_ a very influential band. and it's 'exorcism', not 'exorcist'. the song title is an analogy, it's about the release of suppressed emotions and aspects of our minds that perhaps we don't face up to because we find them ugly. it has nothing to do with "A goth- apocolyptic version of Spinal Tap".

i suggest dr c should think twice before he dismisses a generally well-respected and certainly very original band's entire output as "hopeless" and "preposterous". or at least be prepared to justify his claims when people who like said band unexpected turn up, rather than get all defensive and try to paint a false picture of the fans as a bunch of internet bullies. c'mon, of course we're gonna fight back!

anyway, on a separate note - i agree with jerry when he says kj isn't something you should want to like. it's a feeling you either identify with or you don't. it can sometimes take time to happen, but you'll know when you've got it. and it you don't know what i'm talking about then you don't like them.

Ned picked up on my reference to Play Dead & their ilk. I find them very interesting too. Sure they are influenced by more than KJ (likes of Joy Division & Black Sabbath spring to mind) but 1919's sound was rather more plagiarism, but spirited all the same. They used to credit Jaz on the sleeves but at least they did their own stuff, unlike this appalling culture of tribute bands you get today.

Dr C: "In fact I don't like the late 80s/early 90's 'industrial' scene at all."

Well why are you offering such arrogant and ignorant criticism of one of the industrial scene's most influential groups then?

I think it's important to say something about this forum and what it does.

We discuss music and bands. A lot of bands. There are no set ones we like, there are no set ones we don't. It's about individuals expressing their individual tastes.

All the threads "classic or dud" involve people saying whether a band is 'classic' or a band is 'dud'. Bands are generally used to criticism and rightly do not give a fuck what we think on the incredibly tiny chance that they would even encounter this forum anyway. So everything from reasoned discussion to jokey abuse *of bands* is fair game. Killing Joke have hardly been alone in getting slated by a couple of posters.

If teasing, mocking or abusing bands bothers you, you're probably better off in another forum. We, collectively, did not 'pick a fight' with anyone.

What isn't generally accepted is abuse between posters, because it turns threads into huge boring slagfests. Now some people who post here regularly have overstepped the mark and some people who don't post here regularly have overstepped the mark too. The mark is pretty much an unwritten and unspoken one so that's going to happen occasionally. But as moderator I'm now suggesting that people take the personal stuff to e-mail and any further discussion in the thread is taken to be about the band and not a personal slight on anyone.

Thanks to everyone - regulars or not - who contributed intelligently.

I didn't really feel the need to "leap to defend" KJ, as I think their music can "defend" itself quite well all by itself. However, Tanya's remark causes me to ask what the HELL is the difference whether it's a male or female posting the answer? I always thought that forums like this were to freely dicuss ideas and opinions, regardless of age, race, GENDER, etc. But hey, you learn something new everyday...

To anyone still not decided about KJ: Go to www.the-last-laugh.com Go through the videos link and then the promo link and download the promo for Let's All Go (To The Fire Dances). Then the TV appearance link and download Frenzy, performed live. There's a lot of other stuff too but that's what I like.

Don't worry my KJ Brothers and Sisters- after reading this Dr C's posts I have unleashed a 7 year curse his way. Sometimes you gotta learn the hard way. Don't cross the Joke

I'm shitting myself.

Poor Dr. C, cursed not to have to listen to bombastic 80's crap like Jaz Coleman's ranting.

I pity him so.

Oh Nicole, when will you learn to HONOUR THE FIRE for there is NONE MIGHTIER. You may mock, but in time you will learn the hard way that the Joke are not to be crossed lightly.

I'm getting into this..

A few years ago, during a period when I spent far too much time wandering about doing nothing much, I invented a game, a sort of street AICON, in which I'd attempt to guess which band T-shirt the person walking towards me would be wearing. I rapidly came to the conclusion that there were only three sets of fans I could recognise with any certainty: Chumbawamba, New Model Army and Killing Joke. Never having heard the latter, I've just done as Nick F suggested and went to the Last Laugh website (noting that my mouse trail suddenly said "confirm your worst fears") and downloaded a couple of the videos. I wouldn't associate KJ with the (dread) word twee, but ...Fire Dances features a couple of girls with white knee socks and Mary Janes! As for the music... really, really, really not my thing. Sorry, dud.

Hmmm, if it's not your "sort of thing", why feel compelled to pass judgement on something you have little interest in. Bizarre. If you can dismiss a bands worthiness on the face of a couple of promo videos, it's your very much your loss. You are the weakest link, goodbye.

Does this mean Ann Robinson HONOURS THE FIRE?

In the true spirit of fair play and the utilization of the freedom of information, it should be noted that Nicole (she above who is taking great pleasure in lambasting the Joke) is, by her very own admission (seek ye the "Introduce Yourselves" board) a fan of Destiny's Child. With the utmost respect to all parties involved, I personally would imagine that this absolves her of the burden of credibility in the musical taste department. This is not a personal slight (as I've never met the woman), but merely an obsevation for the benefit of those whose opinions of Killing Joke might be swayed by that which they read here. To her credit, she also likes the estimable Nick Cave and Talk Talk (but how she reconciles them with childish pabulum Destiny's Child I'll never know). Killing Joke is a classic. Destiny's Child is a dud. Honor the Fire! - AlexinNYC

Destiny's Child: classic. Killing Joke: dud. Honor the bugaboo!

Having been to the 'Last Laugh' website, I'm surprised you KJ fans recommend it, as there's a small library of press articles which might as well be entitled 'Why Not To Like Killing Joke, Specifically Because That Coleman Fellow Is An Utter Prat'. Heh heh heh..

even i have to agree with that.

but a talented prat none the less.

Alex: I'm not gonna dis you on the internet, because my momma taught me better than that. But the Joke is another kettle of fish.

Who the fuck are Killing Joke ?

Who the fuck is Geordie Racer?

I like muesli.

"http://thepolywog.com/copshootcop/posters/images/livedemo-01.jpg"

You mean this, right?

Hiya Ned, sorry...inspired by that thread about how to post pictures (which I don't know how to do), I'm practicing here on a thread that seemed long since abandoned. Pardonez-moi. If you know how, I'd love to learn!

Trying again:

http://thepolywog.com/copshootcop/posters/images/livedemo-01.jpg

If anyone gets this far down here, I just wanna say "What's THIS For.." is quite an amazing record, as are moments on "Killing Joke", "Revelations", and "Fire Dance". There are also some good rarities on various compilations... like "Me or You", which completely invented The VSS, and other new wave/gothed out pretty hardcore bands today.

Martyn Atkins has some interesting things to say about Jaz....

My own thoughts on ...what's THIS for... here. And quite positive thoughts they are too. ;-)

To Alex -- okay, looks like what you're trying to do is put a picture here rather than create a link, correct? You've got the address, but you're not putting in the right HTML tags to make it work. Do this instead:

http://thepolywog.com/copshootcop/posters/images/livedemo- 01.jpg

Now, I've added extra spaces here so you can see the code -- when you try it, remove the space before IMG, both spaces on either side of the equal sign, and the final space between the end quote mark and the end caret. That should result in presenting the image as a post.

If anything, Killing Joke are/were a gothed out stomping glam rock band. The drums owe so much to Cozy Powell, Sweet, and other early 70s Chinn/Chapman rock.

IMG SRC= http://www.maliciousdamage.com/gallery/jaz/jaz86.htm

IMG SRC="http://www.maliciousdamage.com/gallery/jaz/jaz86.htm"

gotta put brackets around the source of the JPG, Alex ... like so (peak the code!)

http://www.maliciousdamage.com/gallery/jaz/jaz86.htm

AAAGH!!! Don't listen to me then! :-0

Oh MAN! IT WORKS!

Hurrah for Alex! ONE OF US.

Thanks, Ned!!!! Coulda done it without you. May the rest of ILM tremble......

Whoops, that shoulda read: COULDN'T have done..etc.etc.

Jaz Coleman looks like some diabolical cross between Lou Reed and Syd Barrett in those pix. And I mean that as a compliment, of course!