Why do people rag on Steely Dan's "Gaucho" so much?

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Is there a decent book about Steely Dan in print right now? They're one of my favorite bands but I know next to nothing about them.

retort pouch (retort pouch), Sunday, 12 June 2005 04:50 (eighteen years ago) link

interesting nad OTM on the david lynch (which i somehow missed earlier) comparison by Geir. i don't feel so much the kubrick thing - but don't know his stuff nearly as well

gahhhhh

Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Sunday, 12 June 2005 04:58 (eighteen years ago) link

What is the meaning of "Third World Man" (i.e., why is it disturbing)?

Joe (Joe), Sunday, 12 June 2005 12:35 (eighteen years ago) link

Third World Man is about a survivalist guy who creates some disturbance in his neighborhood, I think

Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Sunday, 12 June 2005 12:40 (eighteen years ago) link

(and it's disturbing because the mood of the song emphasises what it's like to both be that guy & to be on the receiving end of his blow-up)

Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Sunday, 12 June 2005 12:42 (eighteen years ago) link

I like the Kubrick comparison even though I like SD much much more than I like Kubrick. But what I don't like about Kubrick is closely related to what I don't like about Aja and The Nightfly . I like Gaucho much more than either of these, although not as much as some of the earlier albums.

frankiemachine, Sunday, 12 June 2005 13:22 (eighteen years ago) link

sorry Gear.

Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Sunday, 12 June 2005 19:40 (eighteen years ago) link

I think "Gaucho" is the weakest of the original albums, I can't seem to work up much enthusiasm one way or the other about their recent stuff. But for a perfect album that is a bit boring, it beats anything else in that vein I could name, certainly better than Joni Mitchell's similar jazz crap--although I would've liked to have heard Pastorius on some Steely Dan, he makes some of that Joni stuff listenable. "Off Night Back Street," not much of a song but a cool record. I really think the same about "Gaucho," I dunno about the songs, but it's a good-sounding record and I think it pleased them to make something like that. Anyway, I think the best thing they did since their second album is "Josie."

edd s hurt (ddduncan), Sunday, 12 June 2005 20:03 (eighteen years ago) link

THIRD WORLD MAN

Johnny's playroom
Is a bunker filled with sand
He's become a third world man

Smoky Sunday
He's been mobilized since dawn
Now he's crouching on the lawn
He's a third world man

Soon you'll throw down your disguise
We'll see behind those bright eyes
By and by
When the sidewalks are safe
For the little guy

I saw the fireworks
I believed that I was dreaming
Till the neighbors came out screaming
He's a third world man

Soon you'll throw down your disguise
We'll see behind those bright eyes
By and by
When the sidewalks are safe
For the little guys

When he's crying out
I just sing that Ghana Rondo
E l'era del terzo mondo
He's a third world man

pdf (Phil Freeman), Sunday, 12 June 2005 20:17 (eighteen years ago) link

"But a perfect album that is a bit boring, it beats anything else in that vein I could name"

OTMFM - about 'Aja,' that is.

Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Sunday, 12 June 2005 21:24 (eighteen years ago) link

Given all the criticism this record has taken, this might be a good place to note that Two Against Nature is tuneless shit.

Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Tuesday, 14 June 2005 13:13 (eighteen years ago) link

You should have jumped on the "Back To The Egg" thread, Matthew!

Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Tuesday, 14 June 2005 13:16 (eighteen years ago) link

Your wish is...

Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Tuesday, 14 June 2005 13:38 (eighteen years ago) link

I agree with the above posters re: Gaucho being the weakest of the original albums. And it does sound like they are worn-out and just plain sick of the process of making records.

Gaucho was the record where Fagen and sound engineer Roger Nichols wrestled endlessly with the drum machine that Nichols had developed. The strain between Fagen and Becker was starting to show, as well.

Despite all that, Gaucho has Babylon Sisters, one of the most harmonically advanced pop songs I can think of. And it gets stuck in your head! Must hear now...

Brooker Buckingham (Brooker B), Tuesday, 14 June 2005 13:44 (eighteen years ago) link

I'm with Al in that it's probably my least favorite of the original seven. But the singles are among their best and the title track is my current favorite SD song.

Will(iam), Tuesday, 14 June 2005 16:01 (eighteen years ago) link

Gaucho: better than Royal Scam & Pretzel Logic any day

there, I said it

Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Tuesday, 14 June 2005 16:19 (eighteen years ago) link

: o

Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Tuesday, 14 June 2005 16:29 (eighteen years ago) link

Yeah, but what about Two Against Fucking Nature, people!?!?

Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Tuesday, 14 June 2005 16:35 (eighteen years ago) link

I don't mind Two Against Nature. It's not as tuneful as Mach 1 SD, and it sorta has that harsh digital sheen - it's too perfect.
But some of the songs stand out. I like Cousin Dupree. It's certainly a step down.

Brooker Buckingham (Brooker B), Tuesday, 14 June 2005 16:41 (eighteen years ago) link

Two Against Nature isn't that great, but I think Everything Must Go has some really exceptional moments.

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 14 June 2005 16:46 (eighteen years ago) link

It's not as tuneful as Mach 1 SD, and it sorta has that harsh digital sheen

OTM. I bought it when it came out and have tried to get into it about 15 times — and aside from the lecherous "Who has a friend named Melanie?/Who's not afraid to try new things?" couplet in "Janie Runaway" and a little bit of "West of Hollywood", absolutely nothing has stuck with me. It's actually hard to listen to...

Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Tuesday, 14 June 2005 16:53 (eighteen years ago) link

Everything Must Go is pretty awesome, especially the title track - I like 2vN too, if Fagen's writing the songs then I'm a happy man

Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Tuesday, 14 June 2005 17:37 (eighteen years ago) link

i think its an awkward album b/c its largely about them being awkwardly and ugily old - openly desperate and fairly unsubtle in general. i don't think those themes worked with their usual approach b/c stuff of the past was depressed/creepy/about being fucked, but glamourously and measuredly so. i think they had one foot in that door trying to make it artful, and another in the oh fuck it door. i haven't heard everythign must go but i can see 2 Against being kinda a segueway into something good. (i know i'm the worst album reviewer on ilm, but i just don't care)

Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Tuesday, 14 June 2005 18:06 (eighteen years ago) link

nah, i like yr stuff, susan.

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 14 June 2005 18:11 (eighteen years ago) link

thx man

Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Tuesday, 14 June 2005 18:12 (eighteen years ago) link

I was always skeptical of the fact that Gaucho was considered markedly worse in the discography reviews I read since the best songs on the hits comp, the 1st Dan I heard, were from Gaucho. The title track remains my favorite Steely Dan song, despite how much the arrangement reminds me of a telelvision sitcom theme.

theodore fogelsanger (herbert hebert), Tuesday, 14 June 2005 18:27 (eighteen years ago) link

I bought this on used vinyl but I still haven't listened to it all the way through. Usually I just put on "Hey Nineteen". But for that alone: classic.

o. nate (onate), Tuesday, 14 June 2005 18:30 (eighteen years ago) link

The title track remains my favorite Steely Dan song, despite how much the arrangement reminds me of a telelvision sitcom theme.

You can thank Keith Jarrett for that.

Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Tuesday, 14 June 2005 18:43 (eighteen years ago) link

i like your posts a lot too, susan.

Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Tuesday, 14 June 2005 21:44 (eighteen years ago) link

Is that 'Tusk' (album) snare decay on the intro of "Time Out of Mind"?

Rickey Wright (Rrrickey), Thursday, 16 June 2005 06:19 (eighteen years ago) link

I mean cymbals.

Is it "What Makes You Think You're the One" that I'm thinking of? The smashes right at the end of the song?

Rickey Wright (Rrrickey), Thursday, 16 June 2005 06:24 (eighteen years ago) link

Also, "TOOM" is no "Any Major Dude Will Tell You," but it's still *heartbreaking*.

Rickey Wright (Rrrickey), Thursday, 16 June 2005 06:24 (eighteen years ago) link

one month passes...
"opening with and economic crash and closing with a smacked-out rumination about succor, betrayal, and Vietnam..." and then the review goes nowhere.

That's a review of Katy Lied, not Gaucho. And it does go somewhere, to this insightful place: "The music lets us know that their cynicism is no more a celebration of cynicism than their smack references are a celebration of smack, lets us know we can break the habit."

Gaucho is pretty devastating, actually. It's their most bitter album. I like that about it, but then again, I'm not entirely healthy.

Paunchy Stratego (kenan), Friday, 22 July 2005 00:51 (eighteen years ago) link

This line fron Christgau confuses me:

Though not as lively as "Chain Lightning" or "King of the World," from back when they masqueraded as a rock and roll band rather than a "sophisticated pop/jazz group."

Masqueraded? What did they ever masquerade as? That's huge, fat bullshit.

Paunchy Stratego (kenan), Friday, 22 July 2005 00:58 (eighteen years ago) link

five months pass...
Finally bought the album and the much-vaunted "Third World Man" - was surprised by how moving the latter was. Dessicated, reeking of tequila, cheap incense, and cigarettes....what a way to close this part of their careers.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 02:21 (eighteen years ago) link

Everytime this thread gets revived, I pull out this album on iTunes.

My father actually dated a nineteen-year old in 1980. She took my sister and I horseback riding. Weird to think that she'd be 45 this year.

Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 04:50 (eighteen years ago) link

i just bought this album on saturday. was listening it in the car 5 minutes ago.

does anyone have the unreleased version of it? the mp3s aren't on this site anymore but the story seems interesting.
http://www.bigomagazine.com/archive/ARrarities/ARsdgaucho.html

jaxon (jaxon), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 06:54 (eighteen years ago) link

i have some of those. yeah, they're good.

2 columbus circle in 1964 (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 07:03 (eighteen years ago) link

This album more than any other built up an image in my head of LA's seedy side long before I moved here. It's nice to listen to on a late night drive home.

camandas (camandas), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 08:25 (eighteen years ago) link

This is the greatest one-line review ever: Gaucho is just sort of the culmination of what started with Scam -- the soundtrack to hitting on the chick who works at the bank at the local Ramada bar.

Baaderonixx, born again in Xixax (baaderonixx), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 09:01 (eighteen years ago) link

haha, the liner notes on the cd talk about hitting on chicks that are all coked out and work at some restaurant

jaxon (jaxon), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 18:03 (eighteen years ago) link

i like gaucho better than the royal scam.

Special Agent Gene Krupa (orion), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 18:07 (eighteen years ago) link

It's not their best; it does sound fagged-out and worn; "Babylon Sisters" sounds like that Ramada Inn bar band parodying Steely Dan as a "SNL" spoof; but I wish I could hate it more.

The Nightfly was a nice comeback.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 20:04 (eighteen years ago) link

You've got to shake it, baby.

jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 20:07 (eighteen years ago) link

I'm shaking the damn thing! I can't hate it!!

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 20:09 (eighteen years ago) link

I like Gaucho much more than Aja and much, much more than Nightfly, although I prefer middle-period (Katy, Pretzel, etc to any of them.

frankiemachine, Wednesday, 11 January 2006 20:53 (eighteen years ago) link

how is it better than Nightfly, frankie? Just curious.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 21:04 (eighteen years ago) link

first four > aja > guacho > the night fly > royal scam

Special Agent Gene Krupa (orion), Thursday, 12 January 2006 04:38 (eighteen years ago) link

I've recently re-assessed my relationship to Steely. in other words, I've actually listened to them again with some degree of real attention. there is, too, a rather poorly written but informative book on SD, from Omnibus Press, I believe, and you start to see how much pure steely willpower those guys had, how fucking professional they were about making music, and how hard they drove themselves and their musicians. all of which I admire. so I guess my take is that Becker and Fagen were all about *not* letting the music breathe very much, that seems to be their goal, with the inevitable guitar solos and, sure, the amazing Steve Gadd drumming on "Aja" (the song) standing in for their repressed feelings. so, seems to me they were pretty damned smart. or just that they fit my theory of pop fairly well.

anyway, I rank their LPs thusly: Countdown>Pretzel>Can't Buy>Katy>Aja>Gaucho>Scam. "Scam" is just too fucking dried out for me, even though "Kid Charlemagne" and "Haitian Divorce" are ace. But "Haitian" sure pales beside August Darnell's "Annie, I'm Not Your Daddy," while "Kid" ain't as good a bye-bye-counterculture song as the one they wrote for Thomas Jefferson Kaye, "American Lovers." that's ze rub, to my mind.

and their last two, I can't get into them at all, although they're certainly well-done and nastily funny, sexist, middle-aged lust and its discontents, whatever. maybe some day I'll change my mind about them too.

edd s hurt (ddduncan), Thursday, 12 January 2006 17:58 (eighteen years ago) link

I can't really explain it, Alfred. All I can say is that I'm a big fan of SD and I bought Nightfly expecting to like it, played it several times, and found it totally unengaging. I literally don't like a single track on it. Mind you, apart from Deacon Blue I don't really much care for anything on Aja either (and even Deacon Blue gets sickly after a while). Musically I find plenty to admire on these albums, maybe Chuck Rainey's bass playing on Aja most of all, but put it all together and it still doesn't add up to music that can move me emotionally.

I didn't hear Gaucho until much later, because I thought (wrongly I now suspect) that my problem with Aja and Nightfly was their too glossy production; Gaucho had the reputation of being more of the same but with weaker songs, so I avoided it. Something must have persuaded me to give it a try, and while there are jazz-fusion-lite meanderings I don't care for, I do like a lot of the album. Babylon Sister especially is one of those rare tracks that when the track finishes I just want to hear it again.

frankiemachine, Thursday, 12 January 2006 19:11 (eighteen years ago) link


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