Take a Sad Song and Extract Every Last Ounce of Spontaneity from It: the Beatles Uber-Ballad Poll

Mmm, very speculative. There was also George Martin.

Will you guys please look at this?

https://www.facebook.com/georgeharrison/photos/a.215228111344.138122.20929721344/10152858923651345/?type=1&theater

George TOOK A PICTURE OF PAUL.

Did he introduce it by saying, "Here's one we thought wasn't good enough for the Beatles to record" ?

Err, ahh, ahh...is this documented? Never heard this one. They were playing it during Let It Be sessions, I know. "We" = John and Paul or who?

Oh yeah, and song selection too... Paul quick to dismiss 'Cold Turkey' and several Harrison songs, yet Lennon and Harrison fucking loathe 'Maxwell's Silver Hammer' and it still manages to get onto an album?

And speaking of the Scorsese doc, Paul reveals that George came up with the main guitar figure in "And I Love Her." He even said of the figure, "THAT'S the song!" Apparently not enough to warrant a co-writing credit.

― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat

It isn't. If so, Al Kooper would've had one on "Like a Rolling Stone."

I'm growing weary of fighting but which George songs quick to dismiss?

that's what a guitarist is supposed to do -- come up with riffs. To solve this problem, you can do what REM-U2 have done and credit everybody.

"Not Guilty?" It's a good thing the Beatles didn't release "All Things Must Pass" on Let It Be!

credit everybody.

Exactly.

Jagger/Richards are without a doubt more stingy at giving out credits than Lennon/McCartney ever were.

If George should have ben credited as a co-writer of "And I Love Her," then perhaps Ringo should be a co-writer of "The End."

If you're going to hold that credits should follow a distinctive or signature riff, but not normal or obvious or stock parts, it seems to me that this is a slippery slope and a potentially endless topic.

Did Steve Gadd cowrite "Fifty Ways to Leave Your Lover"? If yes, then every session person who ever played something awesome should be credited. If no, then to what extent has any drummer ever written anything?

Is Ringo a cowriter of the Beatles' recording of "Roll Over Beethoven"? I don't think anybody told him what fills to play at which points, so presumably he composed his own parts.

re: "Jagger/Richards are without a doubt more stingy at giving out credits than Lennon/McCartney ever were." Ask Richard Ashcroft!

Or Bill Wyman, or Mick Taylor...

Believe Anthony Jackson got a writing credit for his bass part on "For The Love Of Money," but that was a notable exception.

Guys, I have to commend you on finding new nuanced and interesting things to say about the Beatles at this late stage in yhe history of ILX.

Oh yeah, and tim much love to you too, never change.

Sorry, I do you like your contributions, and wish I knew the emoticon to use in this situation.

back at you brother!

If George should have ben credited as a co-writer of "And I Love Her," then perhaps Ringo should be a co-writer of "The End."

Of course. Why not? Did someone else write/play that solo?

Did Steve Gadd cowrite "Fifty Ways to Leave Your Lover"?

I think the question is, did Paul Simon write Steve Gadd's part? If Gadd wrote it, then sure, Gadd should get co-credit.

If yes, then every session person who ever played something awesome should be credited. If no, then to what extent has any drummer ever written anything?

I'm all in favor of all musicians being credited with co-writing. Why not? Just because it's inconvenient? The way "writing" "credit" (and subsequent copyright) is determined is still stuck in the Tin Pan Alley/sheet music era. The recording is the composition, not the inaudible piece of paper with calligraphy on it.

One example (maybe an extreme one) that I always come back to: why are only Rodgers and Hammerstein credited with "My Favorite Things" on the hour-long version on John Coltrane's Live in Japan? They didn't compose any of the solos, nor did they have any hand in the arrangement.

The recording is the composition

Yes but so are the sequencing of events, the chord progression, and the lyrics.

credit the listener imo

it's difficult work

well George came up with the "I look at all the lonely people" part in "Eleonore Rigby" and didn't get a songwriting credit... so a guitar lick...

Other people came up with all sorts of additions/suggestions to Beatle songs.

It's possible that some of them got a little bonus for it, without getting a credit as such.

The occasional line, word, whatever. Did Ringo get one for "Badge" I wonder?

Ringo also came up with the "darning his socks" bit in "Eleanor Rigby.

Recent remarks on George's songwriting, on publishing, starting at 36:04.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owP_32EIoXE

I'm interested in the "What is songwriting?" topic but this may not be the place for it. Not sure I can go as far as Tarfumes T.E.G. - though I greatly respect the inherit ethics in this view. Certainly, Coltrane et al. are composing their solos over the bones of the R&H song. No one who cares about Coltrane would understand it any other way.

I do fear it leads to a reductio ad absurdification stance, whereby a hired percussionist who hits a triangle on 16th notes instead of 8th notes for one and a half measures is as much a composer as Mozart. Or somebody who walks by the studio and says, "You know what this needs? Cowbell." Or a person who makes a slight editorial suggestion like, "Hey John, perhaps you should consider 'it's easy if you try' instead of 'it's easy if you attempt it' here."

I'm a drummer myself, and wouldn't naturally expect praise or credit or extra payment for standard patterns that are off-the-shelf, so to speak. It would be silly to refuse to play anything until the songwriter had "written" that I should play the kick on 1, 2, 3, and 4, snare on 2 and 4, eighth notes on the hat, etc. Of course I'd appreciate credit for an innovative/unique part. But then it becomes subjective as to what level of complexity constitutes composition.

At the same time, if person A writes a reasonably complete song - chords, lyrics, melody, riff, key, feel, tempo, instrumentation - and then the band's bassist chooses to play 1, 5, 1, 5 (instead of 1, 1, 1, 1) for a few measures, I'm not quite ready to say that constitutes composing on the same level as doing the creative and emotional labor of coming up with the foundational ideas in the first place.

not sure if it's said already but i was led to believe songwriting credits go to the person who writes the lyrics and the topline melody. so even if you come up with an iconic beat or bassline, you won't get credit for it in regular circumstances.

They go to whoever, basically.

There's a Fad Gadget song that has a "Robert Gotobed" credit as a thanks for the work he did, drummingwise, on the whole album.

Also, "Land of 1000 dances" has Fats Domino on the credits even when the song is only being sampled for the "Nah nanana nah" bit which wasn't on the original. And he was only added to make him record it.

Or a person who makes a slight editorial suggestion like, "Hey John, perhaps you should consider 'it's easy if you try' instead of 'it's easy if you attempt it' here."

Ha, supposedly Lennon's only contribution to "Hey Jude" was telling Paul to leave in the line "the movement you need is on your shoulder" (Paul wanted to rewrite it).

At the same time, if person A writes a reasonably complete song - chords, lyrics, melody, riff, key, feel, tempo, instrumentation - and then the band's bassist chooses to play 1, 5, 1, 5 (instead of 1, 1, 1, 1) for a few measures, I'm not quite ready to say that constitutes composing on the same level as doing the creative and emotional labor of coming up with the foundational ideas in the first place.

Yeah, it's like, the organ part of "Whiter Shade of Pale" defines the song as much as the lyrics and topline melody. There's a reason the organist sued for credit while, say, the bassist didn't:

On 30 July 2009 the Law Lords unanimously ruled in Fisher's favour. They noted that the delay in bringing the case had not caused any harm to the other party; on the contrary they had benefited financially from it. They also pointed out that there were no time limits to copyright claims under English law. The right to future royalties was therefore returned to Fisher.[38][39] The musicological basis of the judgment, and its effect on the rights of musicians who contribute composition to future works, has drawn some attention in the music world. It has shown that someone who composes a "signature" part for an otherwise complete song could indeed be credited as a co-writer.[40]

yeah there are no rules. jagger/richards could have credited jones, wyman, taylor, etc.
they just decided no to.

errr... the melody of the organ part of "whiter shades of pale" is by JS Bach !

(well inspired by...)

Jagger/Richards should have credited Wyman on 'Jumpin' Jack Flash', I think.

Jagger-Richards not crediting Taylor for "Sway" or "Moonlight Mile" is rank bullshit.

I think that financial aspects put aside, the jagger/richards, lennon/mccartney just thought it was cooler if all the tracks had this signature even when someone else had an input or when the song was solely by one of them.

one of the examples of the subjective aspect of the songwriting credits is the aforementioned "Give Peace a Chance" which was credited lennon/mccartney although the latter had nothing to do with it.

the (bowel) movement you need is on your shoulder

are you expecting a songwriting credit ?

<<I'm a drummer myself, and wouldn't naturally expect praise or credit or extra payment for standard patterns that are off-the-shelf, so to speak.>>

not sure why you deserve any less (or more) credit than the guitarist who comes up with off-the-shelf I-IV-V chord changes.

<I think that financial aspects put aside, the jagger/richards, lennon/mccartney just thought it was cooler if all the tracks had this signature even when someone else had an input or when the song was solely by one of them.>>

i'm sure jagger, richards, lennon and mccartney all thought it was cool indeed. taylor, wyman, harrison, etc., might not feel the same way, obviously. songwriting credits in pop music are ENTIRELY a financial decision.

fcc otm

As I say,the credit on the song does not necessarily relate to who gets paid what.

Jagger-Richards not crediting Taylor for "Sway" or "Moonlight Mile" is rank bullshit.

― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, June 19, 2015 2:58 PM (7 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

and 'Time Waits For No One', too.

I learned a piano chord I didn't know before from TLAWR, so it gets pass marks from me.
― The Manner of Crawly (Tom D.), Wednesday, June 17, 2015 7:50 AM (3 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink