Take a Sad Song and Extract Every Last Ounce of Spontaneity from It: the Beatles Uber-Ballad Poll

the key missing song to me, besides "something," is "in my life." but add 'em both and i'm still voting for "yesterday."

Yeah, both Something and In My Life should've been here and Michelle probably shouldn't have.

michelle feels like the one that doesn't belong in this set.

Musically, it has a different feel than the others, I agree (minor chords? I'm not a musician, but that often explains stuff that feels different to me). It's uber, though-- "the 42nd most performed song of the 20th century" according to BMI.

http://www.archer2000.net/sbs/awardsbmi.html

"Something" is 17th on that list...I'll stand by the idea that it would have made the poll lopsided, but I think I did goof, I should have included it.

I don't think "In My Life" is as famous--maybe better (it's never been a personal favourite), but not as famous.

And I Love Her should be in here too: one of Macca's loveliest ballads.

I don't think "In My Life" is as famous

You must not go to a lot of weddings.

x-post - admittedly not an uber-ballad. Too quiet and reflective.

Anytime you do a poll based on an idea, rather than factual numbers (or somebody else's list), there's room for disagreement. I think "Something" belongs. But when you get into "And I Love Her," it's just a different level of fame. Ditto "In My Life." (Occasionally.)

In order of "I've got plenty of time for this" to "never want to hear it again" -

(Something) >>>>>>> Michelle >>>>> Yesterday > Let It Be > Hey Jude >>>>>>>> LAWR

So much Beatles challops in this thread (and with a guest appearance from the "Ringo was a great drummer" challops as well). "Hey Jude", "Let It Be", "Yesterday" and "The Long and Winding Road" are four of the Beatles' greatest songs, and I bet they would be at or near the top of most people's lists. Yet on ILM they are stinkers, ponderous, overwrought, plodding etc. "Michelle" I can take or leave but the others are pure gold. Voted TLAWR by a nose from Let It Be.

Yet on ILM they are stinkers, ponderous, overwrought, plodding etc.

they're also stinkers, ponderous, overwrought, plodding etc. to my mom

hi clem and thanks for the shout

i quite like "Hey Jude" and "Michelle" but obv the Beatles shd fuck off

four of the Beatles' greatest songs, and I bet they would be at or near the top of most people's lists. Yet on ILM they are stinkers

And yeah, do like "Hey Jude" for Tokyo's drumming.

"Thank you, Ringo, that was wonderful."

(and with a guest appearance from the "Ringo was a great drummer" challops as well).

Huh? He was a great drummer, and my post was not meant to be challopsy.

Hating on Ringo was a challops for decades.

Yeah Ringo's drums are one of the best things on "Hey Jude". The build-up, the way he drops in with that ride cymbal, all of it.

Plus the anecdote about him back from a bathroom break and sitting down at the kit after they had already started

random sampling of Google hits - I searched for the Buddy Rich quote- comes up with a good defense here:
http://tommendoladrums.com/ringo-starr-in-defense-of-a-drummers-perspective/

Had never made the connection about song #1 that now makes me go "D'oh!"

I bet they would be at or near the top of most people's lists

Very debatable--not on ILM, anyway. ("Hey Jude" at #26 was the highest-ranking in the ILM poll a few years back.) Anyway, I assure you this thread wasn't meant to provoke. I'm just interested in trying to figure out why a couple of these songs have withstood massive overplay with me, and to compare that with other people's reactions. Maybe it's just completely arbitrary, with no explanation.

XP re:bathroom break. Jeez no wonder he quit the band shortly after.

random sampling of Google hits - I searched for the Buddy Rich quote- comes up with a good defense here:
http://tommendoladrums.com/ringo-starr-in-defense-of-a-drummers-perspective/

Had never made the connection about song #1 that now makes me go "D'oh!"

― Maria Felix Kept On Walking (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, June 7, 2015 2:23 PM (16 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Ha! I'd never made that connection either!

Missing from that list: "Here Comes the Sun." Ringo effortlessly swings through the cycle of 11/8, 4/4, and 7/8 in the bridge.

I still like Let It Be

Songwriting aside, Ringo def. my favorite player of the 4

Voted TLAWR by a nose from Let It Be.

It's between these two for me. TLAWR is devastating, it really sounds like the end of a relationship. how can people rep for "without you" on the nilsson poll and badmouth this??

'michelle' seems to have lost a bit of the cultural cachet it had when i was young (i.e. the '90s), feels like i heard it all the time then but it's somehow become a relic of that time for me

girl > michelle

Bear with me, haters, but there's this part in the Billy Joel bio about his shows closing out Shea Stadium in its final year. This whole chapter about how they had to add a second show, controversies in ticket prices, how Joel rounded up all of these celebrity guests like Tony Bennett to sing "New York State of Mind" -- all leading up to trying to get Paul McCartney to show up as the cherry on top.

Negotiations went on for weeks, Paul jetting across the Atlantic, still in the air when the show started. Joel gets a note midway through proclaiming that his secret guest was "in New York airspace." Plane lands, McCartney and crew get rushed out by the airport by NYPD, bypassing Customs supposedly, with a motorcade all the way out to Queens.

McCartney comes on with Billy, crowd goes wild, they do some songs, and backstage before the final encore in Joel's hometown, McCartney says, "You know what you we have to close it out with, right?" Joel, deferring to his hero, says "What did you have in mind?" ... and Paul says, "We have to close it out with... LET IT BE."

You can just about hear the air leave the sails, deflating the whole chapter with those words. You get this idea that wherever Macca goes, he's doing something like telling Neil Young at the Bridge Benefit 'YOU KNOW WHAT WE HAVE TO CLOSE IT OUT WITH, RIGHT?"

whereas Joel wanted him to close with "Daytime Nighttime Suffering."

'michelle' seems to have lost a bit of the cultural cachet it had when i was young

This had crossed my mind too--it's not quite as uber as when I first started obsessing over the Beatles (early/mid-'70s). Didn't know this till I looked it up: it won the Grammy for Song of the Year in '67. The competition--"Born Free", "The Impossible Dream", "Somewhere My Love," and "Strangers in the Night"--is perfect. I'm sure "Michelle" seemed like it was from a different universe at the time; today, the continuum there is much greyer.

(I would have voted for either "Rainy Day Women #12 & 35" or the Mothers' "Trouble Every Day," but apparently neither was nominated.)

today, the continuum there is much greyer.

I dunno, so are the voters still.

I would have voted for "I'm indifferent to all five" if that had been included in the choices. As is I voted for Yesterday.

Has to be TLAWR, just to annoy Beatles fans.

what about "while my guitar gently weeps"?

"Yesterday" is great

(xpost) It seems like something very different to me. I wouldn't even call it a ballad, even though it's slow--seems more like trancey drug music.

Am I supposed to vote for the song which most deserves to fuck off or which song can be spared whilst its brothers suffer a miserable, bloody death? I still like Michelle. Hey Jude on the other hand makes me want to walk around and slap strangers.

"michelle" is definitely the one i enjoy most now, it seems a lot more jokey and droll than soppy. definitely feels more spontaneous and innocent than the other songs, you can just imagine 23-year-old paul beaming with pride at how sharp and sophisticated he sounds putting these french lines into his song.

Vote for the one you like best, FFM, if there is one.

J.D. OTM, "Michelle"'s lightheartedness wins it for me. Second place probably "Yesterday," and then a three-way tie of indifference.

all great songs hope all ilmers die

Paul's poking fun at himself and his limited French, right?

lord please take me first for posting in the ira kaplan vs neil haggerty thread

I'm voting "Let It Be" right now partly because of the version with the better solo (the snarly one that rises out of the organ break). Also because the I-vi-IV-V progression can be so agreeably mashed up with "No Woman No Cry," "Tomorrow Wendy," "You're Beautiful," "Torn," and so very many other songs.

well too late, i voted for the most unbearable (HJ)

NAAAAAA, NAA, NAA, NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA! NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA, Heeeey Juuude!
NAAAAAA, NAA, NAA, NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA! NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA, Heeeey Juuude!
NAAAAAA, NAA, NAA, NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA! NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA, Heeeey Juuude!
NAAAAAA, NAA, NAA, NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA! NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA, Heeeey Juuude!
NAAAAAA, NAA, NAA, NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA! NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA, Heeeey Juuude!(Judy Juude, a-juuuude, a-juuudey judey jude!)
NAAAAAA, NAA, NAA, NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA! NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA, Heeeey Juuude!
NAAAAAA, NAA, NAA, NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA! NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA, Heeeey Juuude!(Jude Juuuude, a-juuuude, a-juuudey wooo-yeah!)
NAAAAAA, NAA, NAA, NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA! NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA, Heeeey Juuude!
NAAAAAA, NAA, NAA, NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA! NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA, Heeeey Juuude!(Judy! Judy! a-juuuude looks like a juuude-ay!)
NAAAAAA, NAA, NAA, NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA! NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA, Heeeey Juuude!
NAAAAAA, NAA, NAA, NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA! NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA, Heeeey Juuude!(a-Jude jude, wooo, a-yeah whoo-oa-yeah jude!)
NAAAAAA, NAA, NAA, NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA! NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA, Heeeey Juuude!
NAAAAAA, NAA, NAA, NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA! NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA, Heeeey Juuude!(I said a-Judy Juude, a-juuuude, a-juuudey judey jude!)
NAAAAAA, NAA, NAA, NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA! NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA, Heeeey Juuude!
NAAAAAA, NAA, NAA, NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA! NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA, Heeeey Juuude!(Whoa now Jude Juuuude, a-juuuude, a-juuudey wooo-yeah!)
NAAAAAA, NAA, NAA, NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA! NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA, Heeeey Juuude!
NAAAAAA, NAA, NAA, NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA! NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA, Heeeey Juuude!(Judy! Judy! a-juuuude looks like a juuude-ay!)
NAAAAAA, NAA, NAA, NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA! NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA, Heeeey Juuude!
NAAAAAA, NAA, NAA, NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA! NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA, Heeeey Juuude!(I said whoa a-Jude jude, wooo, a-yeah whoo-oa-yeah jude!)
(repeat hundreds of times until audience is dead)

a-juuuude looks like a juuude-ay!

irl lol

oh, someone transcribed paul's adlibbing during the outro:

“Jude Judy Judy Judy Judy Judy… ow, wahow!"
"Ow ho, my my my"
"Jude Jude Jude Jude Joooo……"
"Na na na na na, yeh yeh yeh"
"Yeah you know you can make it, yeah Jude, you not gotta break it"
"Don’t make it bad Jude"
"Take a sad song and make it better"
"Oh Jude, Jude, hey Jude, woooooow"
"Oh, Jooooooode"
"Yeah"
"hey, hey, hey-yay"
"Hey, hey, hey"
"Now Jude Jude Jude Jude Jude Jude, yeah yeah yeah yeah"
"Woh yeah yeah"
"ah nanananananana cause I wanna"
"Nanananana…. nanalalal ow ow ow"
"oh God"
"The pain won’t come back Jude"
"Yeah, eh hehe heh"
"Make it through"
"Yeyeye Yeah… yeah y-yeah… yeah hahahaha…"
"Godeveningladiesandgentlemen mymymymy mahhhhh"
"ooooo"
"woooooh"
"Well then a na-nanan”

I'm voting for the version of "Yesterday" that my college a capella group did that had an interpolation of Schuetz-style choral arrangements on the reprise of the first verse.

back at you brother!

If George should have ben credited as a co-writer of "And I Love Her," then perhaps Ringo should be a co-writer of "The End."

Of course. Why not? Did someone else write/play that solo?

Did Steve Gadd cowrite "Fifty Ways to Leave Your Lover"?

I think the question is, did Paul Simon write Steve Gadd's part? If Gadd wrote it, then sure, Gadd should get co-credit.

If yes, then every session person who ever played something awesome should be credited. If no, then to what extent has any drummer ever written anything?

I'm all in favor of all musicians being credited with co-writing. Why not? Just because it's inconvenient? The way "writing" "credit" (and subsequent copyright) is determined is still stuck in the Tin Pan Alley/sheet music era. The recording is the composition, not the inaudible piece of paper with calligraphy on it.

One example (maybe an extreme one) that I always come back to: why are only Rodgers and Hammerstein credited with "My Favorite Things" on the hour-long version on John Coltrane's Live in Japan? They didn't compose any of the solos, nor did they have any hand in the arrangement.

The recording is the composition

Yes but so are the sequencing of events, the chord progression, and the lyrics.

credit the listener imo

it's difficult work

well George came up with the "I look at all the lonely people" part in "Eleonore Rigby" and didn't get a songwriting credit... so a guitar lick...

Other people came up with all sorts of additions/suggestions to Beatle songs.

It's possible that some of them got a little bonus for it, without getting a credit as such.

The occasional line, word, whatever. Did Ringo get one for "Badge" I wonder?

Ringo also came up with the "darning his socks" bit in "Eleanor Rigby.

Recent remarks on George's songwriting, on publishing, starting at 36:04.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owP_32EIoXE

I'm interested in the "What is songwriting?" topic but this may not be the place for it. Not sure I can go as far as Tarfumes T.E.G. - though I greatly respect the inherit ethics in this view. Certainly, Coltrane et al. are composing their solos over the bones of the R&H song. No one who cares about Coltrane would understand it any other way.

I do fear it leads to a reductio ad absurdification stance, whereby a hired percussionist who hits a triangle on 16th notes instead of 8th notes for one and a half measures is as much a composer as Mozart. Or somebody who walks by the studio and says, "You know what this needs? Cowbell." Or a person who makes a slight editorial suggestion like, "Hey John, perhaps you should consider 'it's easy if you try' instead of 'it's easy if you attempt it' here."

I'm a drummer myself, and wouldn't naturally expect praise or credit or extra payment for standard patterns that are off-the-shelf, so to speak. It would be silly to refuse to play anything until the songwriter had "written" that I should play the kick on 1, 2, 3, and 4, snare on 2 and 4, eighth notes on the hat, etc. Of course I'd appreciate credit for an innovative/unique part. But then it becomes subjective as to what level of complexity constitutes composition.

At the same time, if person A writes a reasonably complete song - chords, lyrics, melody, riff, key, feel, tempo, instrumentation - and then the band's bassist chooses to play 1, 5, 1, 5 (instead of 1, 1, 1, 1) for a few measures, I'm not quite ready to say that constitutes composing on the same level as doing the creative and emotional labor of coming up with the foundational ideas in the first place.

not sure if it's said already but i was led to believe songwriting credits go to the person who writes the lyrics and the topline melody. so even if you come up with an iconic beat or bassline, you won't get credit for it in regular circumstances.

They go to whoever, basically.

There's a Fad Gadget song that has a "Robert Gotobed" credit as a thanks for the work he did, drummingwise, on the whole album.

Also, "Land of 1000 dances" has Fats Domino on the credits even when the song is only being sampled for the "Nah nanana nah" bit which wasn't on the original. And he was only added to make him record it.

Or a person who makes a slight editorial suggestion like, "Hey John, perhaps you should consider 'it's easy if you try' instead of 'it's easy if you attempt it' here."

Ha, supposedly Lennon's only contribution to "Hey Jude" was telling Paul to leave in the line "the movement you need is on your shoulder" (Paul wanted to rewrite it).

At the same time, if person A writes a reasonably complete song - chords, lyrics, melody, riff, key, feel, tempo, instrumentation - and then the band's bassist chooses to play 1, 5, 1, 5 (instead of 1, 1, 1, 1) for a few measures, I'm not quite ready to say that constitutes composing on the same level as doing the creative and emotional labor of coming up with the foundational ideas in the first place.

Yeah, it's like, the organ part of "Whiter Shade of Pale" defines the song as much as the lyrics and topline melody. There's a reason the organist sued for credit while, say, the bassist didn't:

On 30 July 2009 the Law Lords unanimously ruled in Fisher's favour. They noted that the delay in bringing the case had not caused any harm to the other party; on the contrary they had benefited financially from it. They also pointed out that there were no time limits to copyright claims under English law. The right to future royalties was therefore returned to Fisher.[38][39] The musicological basis of the judgment, and its effect on the rights of musicians who contribute composition to future works, has drawn some attention in the music world. It has shown that someone who composes a "signature" part for an otherwise complete song could indeed be credited as a co-writer.[40]

yeah there are no rules. jagger/richards could have credited jones, wyman, taylor, etc.
they just decided no to.

errr... the melody of the organ part of "whiter shades of pale" is by JS Bach !

(well inspired by...)

Jagger/Richards should have credited Wyman on 'Jumpin' Jack Flash', I think.

Jagger-Richards not crediting Taylor for "Sway" or "Moonlight Mile" is rank bullshit.

I think that financial aspects put aside, the jagger/richards, lennon/mccartney just thought it was cooler if all the tracks had this signature even when someone else had an input or when the song was solely by one of them.

one of the examples of the subjective aspect of the songwriting credits is the aforementioned "Give Peace a Chance" which was credited lennon/mccartney although the latter had nothing to do with it.

the (bowel) movement you need is on your shoulder

are you expecting a songwriting credit ?

<<I'm a drummer myself, and wouldn't naturally expect praise or credit or extra payment for standard patterns that are off-the-shelf, so to speak.>>

not sure why you deserve any less (or more) credit than the guitarist who comes up with off-the-shelf I-IV-V chord changes.

<I think that financial aspects put aside, the jagger/richards, lennon/mccartney just thought it was cooler if all the tracks had this signature even when someone else had an input or when the song was solely by one of them.>>

i'm sure jagger, richards, lennon and mccartney all thought it was cool indeed. taylor, wyman, harrison, etc., might not feel the same way, obviously. songwriting credits in pop music are ENTIRELY a financial decision.

fcc otm

As I say,the credit on the song does not necessarily relate to who gets paid what.

Jagger-Richards not crediting Taylor for "Sway" or "Moonlight Mile" is rank bullshit.

― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, June 19, 2015 2:58 PM (7 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

and 'Time Waits For No One', too.

I learned a piano chord I didn't know before from TLAWR, so it gets pass marks from me.
― The Manner of Crawly (Tom D.), Wednesday, June 17, 2015 7:50 AM (3 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink