middle class white people doing their part to raise food prices for everyone, gotta love it
― k3vin k., Friday, 22 May 2015 19:39 (eight years ago) link
middle class white people doing their part to raise food prices for everyone prevent the patenting and monopolizing of food, gotta love it
― sleeve, Friday, 22 May 2015 19:47 (eight years ago) link
Monsanto fears nothing more than losing market share due to market forces it does not fully control. In that it is like any other monopolist or aspiring monopolist.
― Aimless, Friday, 22 May 2015 19:53 (eight years ago) link
Companies are probably right to fear a critical mass of people who don't know what they are talking about.
― Petite Lamela (ShariVari), Friday, 22 May 2015 20:17 (eight years ago) link
Suppose 50 million Americans decided to avoid GMO corn and soy, while the remaining 250 million ate GMO corn and soy without blinking. What is the worst result of this scenario for Monsanto? It would mean a loss of profits. For humanity, what difference would it make?
btw, the major difference in Monsanto gmo crops is not crops with a higher yield per acre or food with greater nutrition, but the ability to spray Roundup onto fields without killing the gmo plants.
― Aimless, Friday, 22 May 2015 20:24 (eight years ago) link
SV I am genuinely surprised that you are a Monsanto apologist
― sleeve, Friday, 22 May 2015 20:25 (eight years ago) link
I mean sure, liberal anti-GMO activism is problematic on many levels, but this company has a well-documented evil streak
― sleeve, Friday, 22 May 2015 20:27 (eight years ago) link
hmm I would think this is their bread and butter tbh
― Οὖτις, Friday, 22 May 2015 20:27 (eight years ago) link
I'm not arguing in Monsanto's favour by any means but the ability of the internet to force change through the spreading of panic is something companies can legitimately complain about. I'm as sceptical of Monsanto as anyone but I'd rather the debate was around the credible science / politics of GMOs than the chemtrails-type fearmongering that seems to have taken over. It might be the right result for the wrong reasons in this case but idk if that is always going to be true.
― Petite Lamela (ShariVari), Friday, 22 May 2015 20:39 (eight years ago) link
that's a fair point, thanks for clarification
― sleeve, Friday, 22 May 2015 20:42 (eight years ago) link
conflating Monsanto and GMO is problematic imo, even if they have been on the breaking edge of the wave
― ultimate american sock (mh), Friday, 22 May 2015 20:45 (eight years ago) link
yes, definitely, my issue is with the patenting and the lawsuits
― sleeve, Friday, 22 May 2015 20:51 (eight years ago) link
any particular lawsuits? science patents are pretty fucked across the board, imo
― ultimate american sock (mh), Friday, 22 May 2015 20:54 (eight years ago) link
I'm against the entire legal principle that allows the patenting of a genetic code
― Οὖτις, Friday, 22 May 2015 20:58 (eight years ago) link
mh:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowman_v._Monsanto_Co.
http://rt.com/usa/monsanto-patents-sue-farmers-547/
same story, different article:
http://www.rodalenews.com/research-feed/organic-vs-monsanto-organic-farmers-lose-right-protect-crops
The company is notorious for suing those farmers when their non-GMO crops become contaminated by GMOs growing in nearby fields.
― sleeve, Friday, 22 May 2015 21:05 (eight years ago) link
The Bowman case is interesting in that it is kind of a self-defeating move and was done almost completely as trolling. iirc he had previously purchased seed, signed the contracts involved with that seed, and then decided he was going to be clever and try to get something for free, and in fact rub it in the face of the people who sold him the original seed. I can't vouch for the completeness of this article, but it gets into the fact that he was a licensee who was trying to get around a license he signed: http://www.patentdocs.org/2011/09/monsanto-co-v-bowman-fed-cir-2011.html
I think the legislation, as-is, is problematic although the public understanding of plant breeding is more so. If hybrid maize was saved and planted year-over-year, you'd have a completely different crop than originally planted -- hybrids do not breed true. I'm less versed with the soy end of things (as is the industry, as soy is a distant second as far as planted acres go), but I believe the same holds true.
It's worth noting that the last article isn't about Monsanto suing anyone -- it's about a group preemptively suing Monsanto. It's also inconsistent in that they start out with
The judge dismissed the case on the grounds that none of the plaintiffs had actually been sued by Monsanto and therefore their reasons were "unsubstantiated."
― ultimate american sock (mh), Friday, 22 May 2015 21:33 (eight years ago) link
yeah, that might be repeating misinformation from the Saskatchewan case. that's what I get for a cursory search.
you are correct abt hybrids not breeding true, I think that is the case for all crops
― sleeve, Friday, 22 May 2015 21:44 (eight years ago) link
fwiw, Monsanto's background in crop biotech is illuminating as far as their motives go
Until the 80s, they were pretty much completely a chemical company, but (as several companies did) they decided that biotechnology was going to be huge and started tinkering with plant genetics in the 80s. They didn't really bring anything to market until the mid-90s, at which point they licensed the technology to many companies, and got into the maize business. That was in 1996 -- they didn't actually own any means of commercial production before then, afaik.
Following that, they bought as many of the mid-sized maize seed companies as they could. Others have been bought or merged into other corporations. As far as mass industrial feed stock goes, the majority is Roundup Ready seed.
― ultimate american sock (mh), Friday, 22 May 2015 21:45 (eight years ago) link
a better article, which notes that many farmers settle because they can't afford to go to court:
http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2008/05/monsanto200805
― sleeve, Friday, 22 May 2015 21:48 (eight years ago) link
What I know from friends/family involved in farming (of the corn variety) and what I've heard in my professional career, you can break down the corn industry like this:
― ultimate american sock (mh), Friday, 22 May 2015 21:57 (eight years ago) link
that VF article kind of shows the way they are being assclowns, though -- afaik, they hire jerks to lurk around farms that have signed a license agreement, wait for them to plant seed that wasn't purchased under that agreement but has patented traits, and then drop paperwork
― ultimate american sock (mh), Friday, 22 May 2015 22:03 (eight years ago) link
the fact that their goons can't even tell which farmer (or store owner) is which is kind of the prime indicator that they don't give a shit about farmers, even while they're buying up seed companies
― ultimate american sock (mh), Friday, 22 May 2015 22:05 (eight years ago) link
corn farming is so fucking weird these days. there's a yearly show called the "f4rm progress show" that bounces between Iowa and Illinois and the weirdest moment, attending it probably six or so years ago, was seeing a machine that was planting seed in a field at a precise depth that varied by that square foot's soil conditions, ground temperature, etc. followed by a FFA kid in high school with messed up teeth asking me if I could grab a free sample of chaw for him from this chewing tobacco booth
― ultimate american sock (mh), Friday, 22 May 2015 22:18 (eight years ago) link
I think Monsanto will even sue farmers who have genetically modified seeds blow into their land without even planting it on purpose
― panettone for the painfully alone (mayor jingleberries), Friday, 22 May 2015 22:27 (eight years ago) link
uh we just went over that case
― Οὖτις, Friday, 22 May 2015 22:29 (eight years ago) link
They haven't, iirc, although people will constantly claim they have
― ultimate american sock (mh), Friday, 22 May 2015 22:31 (eight years ago) link
there has been at least one high-profile misunderstanding of that:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto_Canada_Inc_v_Schmeiser
All claims relating to Roundup Ready canola in Schmeiser's 1997 canola crop were dropped prior to trial and the court only considered the canola in Schmeiser's 1998 fields. Regarding his 1998 crop, Schmeiser did not put forward any defence of accidental contamination.
however, the Oregon wheat case referred to above seems to have been the result of accidental contamination - but afaik nobody is being sued there.
― sleeve, Friday, 22 May 2015 22:31 (eight years ago) link
If you're curious and/or a complete masochist, page 32 of this pdf appears to be the 2015 technology use agreement:http://www.monsanto.com/sitecollectiondocuments/technology-use-guide.pdf
― ultimate american sock (mh), Friday, 22 May 2015 22:37 (eight years ago) link
― sleeve, Friday, May 22, 2015 4:51 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
right and i won't begrudge that, but this revive was about a food company ditching GMO ingredients. different issue
― k3vin k., Friday, 22 May 2015 23:42 (eight years ago) link
chipotle is full of shit, I go into there and wear a little towel over my eyes as if I was eating an ortolan, so as to not see the "gmo free" banner
― ultimate american sock (mh), Friday, 22 May 2015 23:44 (eight years ago) link
I know a few beekeepers, and most of the concern I see about Monsanto/GMOs is about the effect on bee populations from using additional pesticide. Can anyone point to a good, solid article that defends against this?
― cause baby, now we got dad bod (how's life), Friday, 22 May 2015 23:50 (eight years ago) link
The bee issue is complex and most likely related to insecticides, if there is a link. I know a single study was about honeybee confusion in presence of glyphosate (a herbicide), but that was in isolation and was fairly circumstantial. There's a stronger case for neonicotinoids (a seed treatment, which a seed is coated in, in order to avoid predation of the seed and seedlings) being toxic to bees, but I am not aware of any evidence that it happens when used as intended.
There is a case in Europe where a field was planted with a neonicotinoid treatment that was powdered, it was windy, and it blew on to a neighboring field that was pollinating. Pretty atypical, not how that pesticide is recommended to be used.
The "articles that defend against" policy is kind of one of those "can you show an article saying you didn't beat your wife?" things. I think there might be something messing with honeybees, but every agriculture chemical-based argument I've read is usually a petition saying "ban neonicotinoids and glyphosate and save the bees!"
― ultimate american sock (mh), Saturday, 23 May 2015 00:06 (eight years ago) link
also worth noting that people throw neonicotinoids under the weird GMO umbrella (and under the Monsanto thread!) when it's just a nicotine-like chemical
fwiw original Roundup (glyphosate) isn't under patent anymore and you can buy it generically.
also, the glyphosate tolerance gene? for soybeans, it's no longer under patent. it's expired elsewhere, but as of this year, it's open in the US
― ultimate american sock (mh), Saturday, 23 May 2015 00:13 (eight years ago) link
yeah it is my understanding that a lot of nicotine-based pesticides actually qualify for organic certification.
I will try to look up some good links for the neonicotinoid/bee issue, it's been talked about a lot in the Willamette valley lately.
― sleeve, Saturday, 23 May 2015 00:41 (eight years ago) link