Paul Simon's 'Graceland'

i'm impressed with lag8n's logic though, i never would have guessed paul simon had his own proto-directioners.

― soyrev, Friday, April 10, 2015 11:43 AM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

oy a logic man i see, very good, very nice

thx for the Veal rec, hadn't heard of that book before

man, it is so good. i remember noticing a lot of the amazon reviews complained about how technical it is, but i don't think that's the case and kind of doubt someone else on ILM would find that a problem anyway.

Also, my tape copy of Graceland bought in the late eighties shows Simon giving songwriting credit to many of the African musicians.

iirc, this was retroactive. The initial pressing(s?) gave sole credit to Simon.

p sure ur just making that up

While I'm not a fan of this record, I don't think it's a pile of shit, nor does my view of Simon as a person affect my enjoyment of his work, generally speaking. But I do remember hearing at the time that Simon had to change the credits (and of course I can't find a link to anything supporting that).

But wrt Los Lobos/Steve Berlin, they only brought up the dustup when asked about it. It's not like they went out of their way to make sure everyone knew about Simon's thievery.

(and Simon's response is hilarious: "there was no mention of 'joint writing.'" "Hey, you guys never told me that I didn't write that song of yours, so I just assumed I wrote it.")

los lobos talk abt it like constantly

From 1986 to 2008, they didn't say anything publicly about it. Steve Berlin has since been interviewed two or three times since, and has been asked about it every time.

So, not exactly "constantly."

paul should give them a writing credit

on 'Cars Are Cars'

"we're jamming with Paul Simon on a song WE wrote" vs "we're jamming with Paul so he took the songwriting credit" is too thin for me to care about Los Lobos' complaints. It's a he-said/he-said scenario.

or rather "we're jamming with Paul AND he took the songwriting credit"

there's some really weird thought process going on in this thread. i have no way of verifying los lobos' side of the story and my stated interest in believing them was merely a joke (i hate this album either way), but it's pretty clear they never said "we jammed with Paul and he took all credit." it was, "we played a finished song of ours in front of him, he wanted to sing new words on it, he sang new words on it, and he took all credit."

Right – it's their word against his that they brought a finished song.

Loudest truth bomb of the last month:

When I become Emperor I will ban all songwriting credits from ever being published

― 龜, Sunday, April 5, 2015 11:05 AM

One more recommendation for Michael Veal's dub book (Amazon link); his Fela book (Amazon link) is really good, too.

I like the album, but I also think there could be some truth to the allegations. Also, Los Lobos weren't the only ones complaining re song credits on this:

The book "The Kingdom of Zydeco" has the story on Simon learning about zydeco, working with zydeco musicians, recording sessions with 3 zydeco bands and taping a Rocking Dopsie zydeco instrumental (that turned out to be based on an old Creole standard) and from that creating the credited just to Simon song "That was Your Mother"

The book discussion is in google books too

― curmudgeon, Monday, January 27, 2014 4:00 PM (1 year ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

so who should he have credited

― lag∞n, Monday, January 27, 2014 4:

When Rockin Dopsie complained that he should have gotten a credit, is when Simon's lawyer said Dopsie's song was taken from an old Creole standard and therefore if Dopsie tried to challenge Simon in court they would bring that up.

so who should he have credited

― lag∞n, Monday, January 27, 2014 4:

probably safe to just credit every American song ever written to "anonymous black guy"

When Rockin Dopsie complained that he should have gotten a credit, is when Simon's lawyer said Dopsie's song was taken from an old Creole standard and therefore if Dopsie tried to challenge Simon in court they would bring that up.

― curmudgeon, Friday, April 10, 2015 1:38 PM (12 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

the funniest part of the Steve Berlin interview:

I remember he played me the one he did by John Hart, and I know John Hart, the last song on the record. He goes, "Yeah, I did this in Louisiana with this zy decko guy." And he kept saying it over and over. And I remember having to tell him, "Paul, it's pronounced zydeco. It's not zy decko, it's zydeco." I mean that's how incredibly dilettante he was about this stuff. The guy was clueless.

Songwriters Paul Simon and Zy Decko

^^On that tip, I seem to recall an interview with Simon where he was pushed about the Los Lobos thing, and he kept mentioning how David HILLDEGGER had never confronted him about it.

I would be curious to read a Hidalgo compare/contrast re: working w Simon vs. working w Dylan

its cool how paul simons huge deficit in musical knowledge compared to los lobos doesnt prevent him from making far superior music, almost like this noise doesnt really matter

i mean obvs i have sympathy for it mattering to the ppl actually involved, ppl building a war crimes case against paul simon... lol at u

Dilettante that I am, I mispronounced "superfluous" for years.

i'm pretty sure it's precisely because i like southern african music that i don't like graceland. i first heard the album in the context of a class called Sub-Saharan African Music (taught by michael veal, a onetime touring bassist for fela and author of an incredible book on dub, without a doubt the single most music-comprehending mind i've ever met; irrelevant to topic at hand but i can never pass up an opportunity to prostrate myself in his honor, seriously get his dub book if you have any interest in the genre or good music writing), and it sounded like such banal shit in comparison to the source music. and yes, i'm seldom one to cry "cultural imperialism" when it comes to music, but that aspect of the album seemed written all over the face of these songs in a really gross, craven way. (w/e w/r/t musicianship, btw, that much is nearly a given when it comes to african music that actually made it to wax in its time.)

― soyrev,

I am surprised by this, as PS did not anything much to change what the musicians would normally do.

the album was created via extensive non directed jam sessions iirc, Paul just told them to play anything

ya watch the doc its pretty sweet

I like that a song called "The Myth of Fingerprints" is the subject of endless authorship dispute. If Jonathan Lethem or somebody put that in a book, it would seem way too on the nose.

Over the mountain, down in the valley, live some bitter Los Lobos

lmao

there was no doubt about it
it was the myth of collaboration

iirc, this was retroactive. The initial pressing(s?) gave sole credit to Simon.

― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Friday, 10 April 2015 15:59 (5 hours ago) Permalink

p sure ur just making that up

― lag∞n, Friday, 10 April 2015 16:15 (4 hours ago) Permalink

I had to check this out on Discogs (which has scans of the sleeves and labels of different pressings) and I can see no change in writing credits from American pressings in 1986 until now.

The idea of my hating Graceland and So (they will always be associated to me) is like hating Santa

XP Wasn't the album release held up because of the credits issue?

tbf to Los Lobos getting screwed out of a writing credit is kind of a huge deal for such a big-selling album as Graceland turned out to be. that's a lot of publishing royalties they got fucked out of.

"I am surprised by this, as PS did not anything much to change what the musicians would normally do."

as the architect/director for his own album, i think he simply had bad taste in terms of musical selection (and in his own songwriting, which, despite his collaborators' complaints, i'm sure happened plenty). and obviously, paul simon singing paul simon over the top is quite different from what those musicians would normally do.

and yeah, Outic, not really sure why there are apparently many people whom their story deserves contempt and disbelief. if you want to raise the argument that we will never know who really did what, that's fine. but to mock a band for caring about not getting credited on one of the major album events of its decade, and "always bringing it up" when asked about it, seems like something i don't normally see outside of k-pop fandoms.

so if i have this right, you're saying it would be better if paul simon had recruited a bunch of k-pop musicians

nope. korean pop was horrible in the '80s.

if you have this right, maybe paul simon should not have made an album at all. :D

Watching the Willie Nelson tribute concert on PBS w/my Dad and Paul Simon comes on with Buckwheat Zydeco and I'm wondering if Simon ever learned to say 'Zydeco' correctly and did he make the band suck his dick before going onstage.

Ray Phiri RIP

Christ, the first three posts of this thread!

sad news about ray :(

Phiri was only 70. Lung cancer...

Aw.

Seems like club Graceland would be a good one to drop at a multi-generational wedding.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaq-tZZZbFQ

1. “Homeless (Joris Voorn Final Remix)”
2. “Gumboots (Joyce Muniz Remix)”
3. “I Know What I Know (Sharam’s Motherland Mix)”
4. “Crazy Love, Vol. II (Paul Oakenfold Extended Remix)”
5. “The Boy in the Bubble (Richy Ahmed Remix)”
6. “You Can Call Me Al (Groove Armada Dub Redemption)”
7. “Under African Skies (Rich Pinder/Djoko Vocal Mix)”
8. “Graceland (MK’s KC Lights Remix)”
9. “That Was Your Mother (Gui Boratto Remix)”
10. “Diamonds on the Soles of Her Shoes (Thievery Corporation Remix)”
11. “All Around the World or the Myth of Fingerprints (Photek Remix)”
12. “Homeless (Joris Voorn Kitchen Table Mix / The Duke of New York’s Edit)”

It may be hard for younger folks to appreciate what a big deal this album was when it was released (because albums don’t have that sort of impact anymore). Everyone listened to it — adults, kids — I remember the songs being everywhere, like it just permeated the culture for a solid year.

'You Can Call Me Al' was particularly huge. I have more memories of the Rhythm of the Saints period.

The Rhythm of the Saints was big in the States but was huge in England, no?