The Great ILX Gun Control Debate

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(yes i am a bitch)

― HI DERE, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:43 (seventeen years ago) link

I don't think anyone is saying that, really. I think it stems from the frustration that the perception of guns as these instantaneous, ready-to-go-off-at-any-second devices does cloud the issue. I certainly wouldn't expect the greater understanding of a gun to make someone change their mind, but it's worth exploring the possibility that some of the more hysterical responses might be muted somewhat. Also, it bears repeating that despite what portrayals might rise from television and video games, shooting accurately (particularly a handgun) is difficult, and I think that sometimes isn't clear if you haven't been exposed to one.

I don't want anyone to feel compelled to go shoot a gun, but I also think that it's fair to expect that if you choose not to do so, you can't hold forth any sort of expertise on how "dangerous" they are, other than in a grander statistical sense.

Not directed at anyone, just responding to nabisco.

xpost haha

― John Justen, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:49 (seventeen years ago) link

I don't want anyone to feel compelled to go get assaulted, mugged or taken hostage by someone with a gun, but I also think that it's fair to expect that if you haven't been, you can't hold forth any sort of expertise on how "dangerous" they are, other than in a grander statistical sense.

― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:51 (seventeen years ago) link

i'm puzzled by the idea that guns aren't inherently "dangerous" - that it's only blind ignorance that makes people feel uncomfortable around them.

xpost

th otm

― lauren, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:52 (seventeen years ago) link

guns dont kill people, black people kill people

― and what, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:54 (seventeen years ago) link

i mean, i'm a licensed driver and am often a passenger in cars and can handle one appropriately and know my road safety rules etc etc, but it doesn't take away from the fact that cars are dangerous. it's just a matter of risk/harm reduction.

― lauren, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:54 (seventeen years ago) link

and luck.

― lauren, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:54 (seventeen years ago) link

I'm talking specifically about the dangerous nature of the object/device itself, and meant the "grander statistical sense" to incorporate understandable fears of gun violence/muggings/etc., but I couldn't figure out a way to state that clearly.

many xposts

― John Justen, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:57 (seventeen years ago) link

OK - so was I, JJ!

― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:58 (seventeen years ago) link

xpost stuff: John, I don't think anyone here has been at all hysterical here. And I think the "grander statistical sense" is the one most people are talking about, really: they're dangerous in that plenty of people get killed by them, and whether or not they go off at any moment, there's a significant number of gun-related accidents. Getting comfortable with them would make me slightly less edgy when there's one in the room with me, yes -- but my worries about US gun ownership aren't based on my personal in-the-room edginess, you know? Which edginess is fairly minor, and not so debilitating that I have any need to go "work" on it.

And just for the record, the "city dwellers" argument is a bit strange to me, too. It's true that in a crowded, well-policed city, you're much less likely to run into wild everyday situations where a gun might be useful (e.g., woodland bear attack or whatever) -- but I have also lived and spent time in very small towns, and I have to say, I was no more expecting gunplay situations to crop up there than I am in NYC. I understand the old rural-homestead pioneer-spirit "miles and miles from the tiny police station" rationale for gun ownership, and am all for people having basic rifles when cougars start prowling through their yards and whatnot, but I think that spirit has extended on into levels of urban and suburban civilization where they're not nearly as appropriate. And I really do wonder about the thing everyone's been asking Roger, the thing people always want to ask people with multiple guns, which is something like: what are you expecting? A home invasion? Mob violence? Post-apocalyptic survivalist free-for-all? The emergence of a totalitarian horror? Most of the potential answers tend to be kind of anti-society on some level or another. (Others just unreal, like the girl I knew whose father spent her college fund on heavy arms to combat a potential UN invasion.)

― nabisco, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:59 (seventeen years ago) link

so anyway this happened yesterday

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Two Secret Service officers have been injured in an accidental shooting outside the White House.

Tuesday's incident occurred in a security booth at the southwest gate.

Secret Service spokeswoman Kim Bruce says one officer was injured in the leg and the other received a shrapnel wound in his face.

Bruce says the injuries appear to be non-life threatening. Both officers were taken to nearby George Washington University Hospital.

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:01 (seventeen years ago) link

I suspect that a gun that wasn't inherently dangerous would not sell very well. Guns are inherently dangerous to anything in range and in front of the muzzle, that, is kind of the point.

― Ed, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:01 (seventeen years ago) link

gun enthusiasts with collections of different weapons typically are not so stupid as to keep them all loaded or even have appropriate ammunition around, you buy the rounds when you go to the range and get rid of them there. a bunch of empty guns in the house is no different to my perception than a big collection of guitars or synthesizers or whatever, honestly.

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:04 (seventeen years ago) link

then how do you explain the evergreen popularity of Nerf, ed

― ghost rider, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:05 (seventeen years ago) link

you have me there.

― Ed, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:06 (seventeen years ago) link

wait... jaymc's uncle built his own CANNON

Haha, I like that you just caught this now. Yeah, he built a few and sold them over the Internet to the Civil War reenactment community. I'm not sure whether they were actually operational or not.

― jaymc, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:06 (seventeen years ago) link

then how do you explain the evergreen popularity of Nerf

a seething, barely sublimated or acknowledged hatred of one's co-workers?

― kingfish, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:07 (seventeen years ago) link

I am eagerly awaiting my permit to conceal and carry black people.

― Fluffy Bear Hearts Rainbows, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:07 (seventeen years ago) link

P.S. the edginess is not gun-specific, either! If I were drinking with friends and one of them pulled out a machete and slapped it on the table, that would make me nervous, too. It's less a matter of misunderstanding guns, and more a matter of recognizing a weapon when you see one, and knowing that the stakes and the care you need to exercise have just racheted up. (I'd imagine a gun safety course tells you the same thing: when the weapon comes out, you have to be more alert and more careful!) And of course compared to any other weapon, a gun tends to have the shortest leap from "everything's fine" to "ok something really bad and dangerous is happening now."

(xpost haha Tom yeah I understand gun-collecting on the level of car-collecting, just trying out different types, but seriously up in Michigan I met plenty of militia-type people who were genuinely stockpiling, and I imagine that's not a Michigan-specific phenomenon. I guess this is where gun-collecting meets survivalism, these people where they raid their homes and find practically revolutionary caches of weapons -- to be fair, usually illegal stuff in those cases.)

― nabisco, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:09 (seventeen years ago) link

^^^ agreed. also, JJ and Tracer both otm.

and, fwiw, it's helpful to know who the stockpilers are because when the Rapture comes, they'll have all gone to heaven and you'll be the one with an armory at yr disposal for use against satanists and the undead.

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:10 (seventeen years ago) link

those arrows were for TOMBOT, btw

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:10 (seventeen years ago) link

(Actually, I do think that they were operational, because I seem to remember him using one to fire a pumpkin or something.)

― jaymc, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:11 (seventeen years ago) link

Some people who own multiple guns are collectors, pure and simple. I would venture to say that the desire to collect guns can come from many sources. There are certainly the militia types out there, but there are also people that are avid hunters, people who are into military history, people who enjoy the aesthetics of guns, and simply people that for whatever reason are simply interested in and enjoy them.

All hardcore collectors are seen as somewhat "off" to the general public, but being a gun collector does carry with it a higher level of scrutiny than other things due to the controversial nature of what they are into. Still, statements like

And I really do wonder about the thing everyone's been asking Roger, the thing people always want to ask people with multiple guns, which is something like: what are you expecting? A home invasion? Mob violence? Post-apocalyptic survivalist free-for-all? The emergence of a totalitarian horror? Most of the potential answers tend to be kind of anti-society on some level or another.

do make the argument more acidic than it needs to be, and do show a certain problematic bias that makes these arguments more difficult.

xxxxxxxxxxposts, and probably not vital anymore, but I spent a long time typing it.

― John Justen, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:13 (seventeen years ago) link

survivalist stockpiling is something I am not familiar with! I guess that's my point, that I know plenty of "gun nuts" but genuinely don't suspect any of them of being any more bonkers than my one friend's dad with the basement full of like 50 guitars or my other pal who amassed a boatload of antique synths and drum machines or dude who started buying $300 editions of books on ebay

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:14 (seventeen years ago) link

I would also like a cannon as the squirrels in the tree outside my bedroom woke me up this morning and MUST BE DEALT WITH.

― John Justen, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:15 (seventeen years ago) link

being a gun collector does carry with it a higher level of scrutiny than other things due to the controversial nature of what they are into.

who would've thought that collecting things designed to kill people would invite more scrutiny than collecting baseball cards or comic books

― and what, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:16 (seventeen years ago) link

nabisco, I think the argument about experience with and exposure to guns is directed mostly at the Freudians on this thread who have been screeching about the obvious pathology of the gun owner.

― Fluffy Bear Hearts Rainbows, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:17 (seventeen years ago) link

guys my friends made a CARROT gun in college: same basic design as a PVC potato cannon, but with a small bore bit of metal piping and a piezo trigger. it could throw a baby carrot through drywall like no-one's business.

xp FB, yes

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:17 (seventeen years ago) link

John, the problem is that Roger is a big cock and no one feels the need to be overly polite when talking to him.

― HI DERE, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:18 (seventeen years ago) link

clearly if other students had been allowed to build their own carrot cannons they could have stopped this madman

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:19 (seventeen years ago) link

how did this thread manage to regress into the stone age overnight?

ps roger who's the mongoloid now?

― moonship journey to baja, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:19 (seventeen years ago) link

how would a piezo trigger work with one of these things?

― kingfish, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:25 (seventeen years ago) link

it's just a barbeque piezoelectric trigger

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:27 (seventeen years ago) link

that's the same thing I think kingfish was calling a "lantern igniter"

can we just standardize on "grill tit"

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:31 (seventeen years ago) link

ok deal

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:32 (seventeen years ago) link

http://www.texasfrightmareweekend.com/images/savini.jpg

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:34 (seventeen years ago) link

Ah, true, but there are the two different ignition sources: you do have your twisty-knob thingee(what my dad used)

http://www.coleman.com/coleman/images/products/829B705T_70.jpg

vs the piezo bbq tit

http://img.tradekey.com/images/uploadedimages/products/5/3/A147187-20060313090153.jpg

If personal experience is any indication, the piezo is the better solution, as the twisty spark igniter would easily get covered in hairspray.

― kingfish, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:36 (seventeen years ago) link

oh we're talking grill tits here, for sure.

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:36 (seventeen years ago) link

no we're talking DOGTITS

― Mr. Que, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:39 (seventeen years ago) link

Damn dog, where do you get grill tits anyway?

SNAP: u bitch

― HI DERE, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:39 (seventeen years ago) link

I'm just curious, is there anyone here who will argue that a gun is not an inherently dangerous thing?

― Fluffy Bear Hearts Rainbows, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:41 (seventeen years ago) link

An unloaded gun with ammo seperately stored is not an inherently dangerous thing.

― John Justen, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:42 (seventeen years ago) link

http://www.netsport-magazine.com/images/bicep.jpg

GUN CONTROL NOW

― HI DERE, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:43 (seventeen years ago) link

back to something tombot said - the big difference between a basement of guitars and a basement of guns is that should there be a break-in the guitars have slightly less potential to case carnage elsewhere later on.

mah! xpostois

― The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:43 (seventeen years ago) link

I meant to add /pedantic response] to my answer but you people are too fast for me.

― John Justen, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:44 (seventeen years ago) link

it depends on what they do with the guitars.

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:47 (seventeen years ago) link

Wait, Fluffy, look: I basically agree with you / Tom / John about normal collectory ways to be interested in guns, but you can't entirely shield that from people wondering or speculating about why. When people collect Precious Moments figurines, we call them big dorks. When people collect used panties from around the internet, we call them perverts. When people drive Hummers and smoke huge cigars, we joke that they have tiny penises. And so if you happen to collect deadly weapons, fired or bladed -- and especially if your interest is specifically in their deadliness* -- you're kinda gonna have to deal with people making assumptions about your interests in force, power, death, etc., right? Because we all know that the guitar collector is interested in MUSIC, not just the guitar as an object; and there's no reason for us to suddenly suspend that equivalency with guns.

(* = I guess I'm referring to the difference between a "can you believe the stopping power on this bad boy" collection versus a "this non-functional musket was actually used in the war of 1812!" collection.)

― nabisco, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:48 (seventeen years ago) link

Because we all know that the guitar collector is interested in MUSIC, not just the guitar as an object

but this statement isn't actually true.

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:49 (seventeen years ago) link

yeah i had a roommate who owned a les paul that he claimed he was never going to play and he said he was going to sell for lots of money

― Mr. Que, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:50 (seventeen years ago) link

Well if we're all going to be giant point-missing pedants, let's note that one Les Paul does not constitute a collection.

― nabisco, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:51 (seventeen years ago) link

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