R.E.M. trio albums POLL

turrican, please apply what i said about critical appreciation to commercial appreciation. it's not that the world took a collective shit on it, but that "still doing ok in europe" kinda pales to the new plateaus of success they achieved with each album through monster

― da croupier, Sunday, January 18, 2015 9:35 PM (21 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Of course they weren't as huge worldwide as they were around the time of Automatic For The People or Monster, but that doesn't mean they still weren't a big band.

In fact, Reveal was probably more successful outside of the US than Up was.

But then, I've always found the American perception of this band, their albums and even some of their individual songs to be wildly different to the UK/European perception. In the UK in particular, this undoubtedly has a lot to do with the fact that R.E.M. didn't have their breakthrough here until Out Of Time.

I imagine Reveal was the last time a lot of people thought, "I suppose I gotta buy the new REM record" -- it was for me.

I remember being excited to pick up Reveal after David Cavanagh's rave review -- I think that actually increased the letdown after hearing it.

― Chuck_Tatum, Sunday, January 18, 2015 9:32 PM (35 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Nope, I think Around The Sun was actually the tipping point commercially. Y'see, Around The Sun made it to #1 in seven countries, and also made the Top 10/Top 5 pretty much everywhere else aside from Japan, New Zealand, Portugal and the US. Problem is, the fans didn't like it and this had a knock-on effect on what came after.

xposting, Up is also where we really learned, if we did not know it already, just how Bill contributed, not just musically (singing, piano, drums, guitar, etc.) but as a mediator between Buck and Mills in the studio. They have both conceded, iirc, that Up could have been shorter but neither of them wanted to cut any of their songs.

Up would have made such a great final album. Or the place they should have recorded an acoustic album with, say, no drums. Or the place where they should have gone on hiatus. I really could have seen the group coming back strong after a long break, rather than dutifully churning out records that at best occasionally got the sound right but rarely captured the spirit of REM. But of course, they also conceded that minus Bill they were a different band.

Incidentally, "Up" and Berry's departure all happened right after or around the firing/retiring of their longtime manager Jefferson Holt. Don't underestimate what a change in management can do to a group. U2 losing Paul McGuinness has clearly been bad for the band.

for reference btw:

I Ate The POLLtus: REM's "Up" 30 votes
POLL The Way To Reno: REM's "Reveal" 29 votes
Leaving Was Never My POLLed: REM's "Around The Sun" 18 votes
SuPOLLnatural, SuPOLLserious: REM's "Accelerate" 06 votes

otm about Holt's departure (which was a bit later, early 2000s, right?) and very ugly, involving sexual harassment claims, iirc. That kinda was their equivalent to Brian Epstein's death for the Beatles. They lost a mediator & sounding board & became a set of occasionally-hostile interests, compromising w/each other to keep things going for a while longer.

correction: you're right: happened in '96, around the same time Berry left

Feeling like piping up again against what seems to be a lot of consensus here. Around the Sun has a lot of slow songs. But I've never seen how they're inherently worse as a group of songs than those on the two albums that preceded it. Collapse Into Now is a wonderful record with very moving songs and was an awesome gesture by the group in finishing their career.

You know Up winning this would be ironic, in that it's the only one Berry was actually involved in writing.

The Holt thing was really 'off' - the whole close knit, 4 way tie thing, suddenly there was all this uneasiness, coupled with Berry's departure.

96/97 was generally a weird time to be an REM fan.

I remember reading the news about Bill Berry leaving R.E.M. and their decision to carry on and remember having mixed feelings about it at the time. On one hand, I knew it would never be the same again, which was saddening to me as I loved New Adventures In Hi-Fi (and still do) even if it didn't then receive the praise that it does now. I just didn't feel like they were finished at that point. On the other hand, I was curious to see how they'd handle the departure and was looking forward to seeing what they'd come up with. They did a really good job at first of putting on a front and making it look like they were successfully carrying on as normal with a near-same degree of chemistry as they had before and that they hadn't much trouble adapting to becoming a three-piece, if I recall. Then of course, the stories started coming out about communication breakdowns between band members and a stark difference in working methods between Stipe and Mills (who liked to labour over the details of the music) and Buck (who liked to work in a more instant way). From what I can gather, Berry was very much in the same school of "no fuckin' around, let's get this track done" as Buck was, so his departure left Buck pretty much out on a limb. I suspect Pat McCarthy was going along with the way that Stipe and Mills (the "majority" of the band by this point) worked and that alienated Buck further.

Buck, I guess, was no stranger to doing work outside of the band, but he seemed to be increasingly more interested in working outside the band than with the band. He eventually got his way on Acclerate and Collapse Into Now, which are more in keeping with his preferred working methods and I think Accelerate in particular is as underrated now as New Adventures In Hi-Fi was when it first came out, and I think it'll take a while for people to catch onto it because "it doesn't have Berry on it, therefore it's not a real R.E.M. albumzzzzZZZzzzZZZzzzz..."

However, I do think a difference in working methods between Buck and Mills were one of the reasons for R.E.M. splitting.

Like, I see Reveal as being a Mike Mills-driven record, and Accelerate as being Peter Buck-driven.

When did Mills start rockin' the nudie suit?

Or, you know, Nudie suit. I'm sure they all rock the nudie suit at times, like on their birthday.

Around the time of Monster, I think?

Which is when Pat McCarthy first started working with R.E.M., funnily enough (he engineered on Monster)

yeah that 'love affair' quote is from Dave Cavanagh in Q. the last line of his 5/5 star Reveal review ("Let the infidelity cease. The love affair with REM is back on.. "). he'd been THE music press REM champ in his days at Select but two years later it seems he had some kind of epiphany and in a 2 page WORD mag piece in 2003 he banged on about how much he wished they'd knock it on the head. "If there’s no more to create, or if there’s nowhere to go but back, REM must stop. They have already ceased to be unique and are in danger of looking foolish. Let them be different to those bands that go on too long and become an embarrassment.” etc etc. it seemed a big deal at the time.

The Mills/Buck tension makes a certain amount of sense, but on the other hand, Mills is a really strong presence on the final two albums, both in his playing and singing. For all that Buck's method may have won out, Mills was clearly enjoying being the driving bass player and second vocal line guy again.

i don't buy any theories that suggest things were TOO contentious between anyone in the band because every other day you see photos of any two of them hanging out at a concert or a restaurant or something. seems like whatever disagreements they have, they all get on board once its sussed out.

Turrican, NAIHF got excellent reviews at the time. Before its release there was little hint that it wouls be a commercial disappointment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZQhTJ4SHP0

i think i just straight up hate stipe's lyrics on collapse which is my barrier to enjoying it

The title of that record is the worst! I think his lyrics started getting over-cutesy on Monster, and were genuinely bad by Reveal - "She Just Wants To Be", ugh.

i like a lot of the lyrics on reveal (and around the sun despite "leaving was never my proud" has a lot of affecting lyrics)

The Mills/Buck tension makes a certain amount of sense, but on the other hand, Mills is a really strong presence on the final two albums, both in his playing and singing. For all that Buck's method may have won out, Mills was clearly enjoying being the driving bass player and second vocal line guy again.

― Poor.Old.Tired.Horse. (Stew), Monday, January 19, 2015 11:06 AM (7 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Oh yeah, there's no doubt in my mind on Accelerate that they sound like they're enjoying themselves, including Mills... and certainly they're mature enough as people to not let "the band" get in the way of their friendships. The difference in preferred methods and lack of communication during the Up, Reveal and Around The Sun sessions must have had an effect, though... it is possible to stay friends while at the same time admitting that maybe the working collaboration isn't working as effectively as it once did.

Turrican, NAIHF got excellent reviews at the time. Before its release there was little hint that it wouls be a commercial disappointment.

― guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, January 19, 2015 3:24 PM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Well, yeah. The critics loved it, and the band themselves considered it to be one of the best records they'd ever made, but at the same time you'd be hard pressed to find fans rating it as highly as they do now.

someone (Noel Murray?) wrote something great about how telling it was they were all toasting each other in separate cities when the breakup press release went out.

I dunno, they'd been living in separate cities for years so I don't think you can read too much into that. We know they've met up regularly enough since then as friends as well as business partners. Granted there were many changes in their working relationship over the years, but I think they dealt with them pretty well all things considered.

If you think about it, R.E.M. managed what The Beatles never did. All four of the original members are still good friends, there's been no lawyers involved and no members suing each other, there was no animosity or bad blood towards Bill Berry for leaving the band in the '90s. Even if the collaboration in a musical sense wound down to its natural conclusion, the business didn't grind them down to the point where it resulted in a nasty break-up.

What I also like about R.E.M.'s break-up is that they felt like they'd achieved all they could, both career-wise and in terms of working together musically, and just stopped. I mean, I love this band, but I certainly haven't missed them putting out new music over the last four years, and I struggle to think of where else they possibly could have gone.

With the exception of Around The Sun, I get the sense that R.E.M. are proud of every record they've made. And rightly so.

I'd say they're still very underrated by some crowds, even though I understand why some people are put off them.

They've also said that they never played with a band they disliked, either supporting another band or being supported by another band at a show. Festivals are a possible and reasonable exception.

I think (not sure) Stipe said he gets final say on all the art direction and wouldn't give it up for anything. I think (also not sure) Buck said he sometimes got hassled at gigs by Warner Bros people with clipboards and just has to tell them to go away.

This was supposed to be the reason they were idolised by American alternative rock bands, that they did everything on their own terms and still got massive.

Their latter-day art director, Chris Bilheimer, lived in Athens about a block north and a block west of Stipe's sometimes-residence; I could imagine them being in regular touch over dinner or drinks or whatever, in a way that Pete Buck wouldn't be.

I like a lot of his stuff - In The Aeroplane Over The Sea is great. For me his REM work peaks in the Monster/NAIHF era - has the right mix of evasiveness and blaring in-your-faceness for what I think the band was doing. The trio-era stuff doesn't quite match the way the records sound to me, or start to tilt too much towards the evasive/anonymous end of things in a way that sometimes makes the covers feel like they could basically be for any band. Which is funny, because their IRS-era covers are all pretty guarded and mysterious too, part of their charm really.

its weird to look at the New Adventures cover and then look at the album covers after it.

OK!

So I listened to Up for the first time since the first Bush term. Looking at the CD case I could hum at least five songs w/out help, and it remained the case when I played it.

First thought: "Why are these songs so long?" The album feels longer than NAIHF.

Second thought: "Why are the electronics so tame?" Stipe is front and center, often singing well, but I wanted tension. Most of the time it sits there, forcing you to listen to the lyrics (it's like the mixing decision matched the decision to include the lyric sheet).

Listenable songs: Hope, Sad Professor, Why Not Smile (I read at the time that it was Stipe playing lead guitar), At My Most Beautiful. The rest? I still don't know Parakeet and Diminished after playing them again. Suspicion goes nowhere and it's the third song -- bad sign.

I still treasure the sight of Stipe in a sarong dancing to "Airportman" at the Tibetan Freedom Concert in '98.

"falls to climb" is a gorgeous closer

Albert- I've got to look for that clip.

Does anyone else like "Suspicion" as much as I do? Guys? Pure magic I say.

So sorry!! Alfred not Albert!!

I'm listening to Collapse Into Now for the first time. it's pretty nice! of the last 3 albums, I only heard Accelerate at the time, and it was OK, but this is probably better. maybe I'll get up the nerve to listen to Around The Sun before the poll closes, although I can't think imagine I'll want to vote for anything besides Up, which I think achieved something really interesting and unique in spite of its obvious faults.

don't think i can ever revisit Reveal, though. have never heard a bigger dropoff from track 1 to the rest of an album than "The Lifting" vs. everything after it.

otm

still love "The Lifting." When the guitar solo kicks in it's like the shaft of light heralding a sunrise.

What do you guys think of "The Great Beyond"? I suspect britishes and Europeans will have a different impression. I bought the CD single, sat down, and forced myself to like it for 35 minutes.

pretty pitiful attempt to rewrite "Man On The Moon" i thought

I'm British and don't rate it highly.

lol the review that pushed me to attend a midnight release in May 2001 at the long gone Virgin Megastore, despite reservations:

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/albumreviews/reveal-20010501

I'm british, I think it's very good. "Bad Day" was nice enough. I didn't like "Animal" much.

xxpost:

...and I bought the CD single at the time, too! I remember at the time that there were a few non-R.E.M. fans that I knew who were into the song, though. I always saw it as one of their more lesser things.

Sorry to say the last few original songs for the retrospective compilation didn't grab me much.

I like "The Great Beyond," and also bought the (pointless) CD single. I've elsewhere argued that if it is a "Man on the Moon" pastiche, it's legitimately updated to Stipe's 1999-era preoccupations - meditation on death, yes, but now in a kind of fuck-it, fighting way, swinging punches, kinda riding the pointlessness of things. I'm not articulating this well. Maybe it's just the difference between second-person (addressing the dead) and first-person, expressing the joy of creativity in the same breath as the quest for meaning. "Sidewinder" vs. "Hope" is the flipside of this.

I read a U2 interview in a British magazine in fall '01 after 9-11, at the peak of their second renaissance, supporting an album that I still find detestable, and Larry said something like, "We want REM to do well. If they go, we go too. But I loved the last album," etc. Couldn't help thinking it was U2's last triumph over the band they were tied to at the hip since 1991.