― Taste the Blood of Scrovula (noodle vague), Wednesday, 13 July 2005 17:17 (eighteen years ago) link
Merckx was more versatile, but apples and oranges.
― Hunter (Hunter), Wednesday, 13 July 2005 19:25 (eighteen years ago) link
― Ed (dali), Wednesday, 13 July 2005 19:56 (eighteen years ago) link
I'd cut his balls off and tell mama I beat cancer. Corny face.
― LeCoq (LeCoq), Wednesday, 13 July 2005 21:02 (eighteen years ago) link
― Ian Riese-Moraine: the crown prince of understatement. (Eastern Mantra), Wednesday, 13 July 2005 21:06 (eighteen years ago) link
There is. There are UCI rankings (International Cycling Union)(er, Union Cycliste Internationale) based on how well riders do in major races. The thing is, most casual fans don't know this because they don't hear about any races other than the TdF. It matters to the riders and to serious cycling fans, though.
― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Wednesday, 13 July 2005 21:07 (eighteen years ago) link
I think Lance is great, and have a harder time understanding the hate, for me, the reason I can't stand, say Manyoo is that mainly it's the fans that bleat on that get on my nerves (ILX is a pretty manyoo-bore free zone compared to much of the internet - the fans here are mainly reasoned and not text talking idiots) with Lance you don't get that (although maybe in the states with the media on Lance-alert creates that feeling) you just see a cold-hearted cycling assasin, but one with a bit of a character, not a faceless machine such as big Mig.
This is one of the most rambly posts I've ever made, I'm really tired, sorry.
― Porkpie (porkpie), Wednesday, 13 July 2005 21:14 (eighteen years ago) link
I've got no problem with Lance Armstrong. To suggest he should have quit after his fifth win is ridiculous. At least he is an attacking rider. Yesterday he destroyed everyone in the mountains. When Indurain used to win every year that WAS boring as he'd just play it safe in the mountains and grind everyone down in the time trials. Merckx (sp?) was a better all-rounder, but Armstrong knows what he's good at and concentrates on that - what's the problem? Also, talking about Merckx and doping is missing the point a bit as it's pretty much accepted that at least 95% of professional riders were (are?) on drugs.
― Teh HoBB (the pirate king), Wednesday, 13 July 2005 21:24 (eighteen years ago) link
― estela (estela), Wednesday, 13 July 2005 22:04 (eighteen years ago) link
― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Thursday, 14 July 2005 10:30 (eighteen years ago) link
WE SHALL UTILIZE THIS ARMSTRONG BY REVERSE ENGINEERING AND CREATING OUR OWN. GENTLEMAN, WE HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY.
― latebloomer: occasionally OTM (latebloomer), Thursday, 14 July 2005 12:49 (eighteen years ago) link
theres pre- and post- cancer eras to take into account here. he was certainly a great road racer, a real one day dude, prior to cancer. i saw him win the texas state championships for fun when the rest of his team was at corestates (which he couldn't do 'cause he was still amateur) in like '91 i think. he was already a regional legend in TX then. triathlete. whatever happened to chann macrae actually?
― noizem duke (noize duke), Thursday, 14 July 2005 17:42 (eighteen years ago) link
― Hunter (Hunter), Thursday, 14 July 2005 18:03 (eighteen years ago) link
― Hunter (Hunter), Thursday, 14 July 2005 18:15 (eighteen years ago) link
104 Chann McRae (TARGETRAINING) 10.20
I claim ultimate cycling results trainspotting idiocy.
― Hunter (Hunter), Thursday, 14 July 2005 18:26 (eighteen years ago) link
― noizem duke (noize duke), Thursday, 14 July 2005 20:56 (eighteen years ago) link
Lance Armstrong is a God
― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 14 July 2005 21:14 (eighteen years ago) link
― 30 Bangin' Tunes That You've Already Got ... IN A DIFFERENT ORDER! (Barry Brune, Thursday, 14 July 2005 21:38 (eighteen years ago) link
― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 14 July 2005 21:47 (eighteen years ago) link
― Teh HoBB (the pirate king), Thursday, 14 July 2005 21:52 (eighteen years ago) link
― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 14 July 2005 23:07 (eighteen years ago) link
― Leon C. (Ex Leon), Thursday, 14 July 2005 23:33 (eighteen years ago) link
― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 14 July 2005 23:34 (eighteen years ago) link
― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 15 July 2005 03:30 (eighteen years ago) link
― Mel Ester, Sunday, 17 July 2005 00:42 (eighteen years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 17 July 2005 04:01 (eighteen years ago) link
― Teh HoBB (the pirate king), Sunday, 17 July 2005 15:37 (eighteen years ago) link
BUt do you HATE him?
― nathalie's body's designed for two (stevie nixed), Sunday, 17 July 2005 16:47 (eighteen years ago) link
― pissoffyouwinging losers, Monday, 18 July 2005 08:54 (eighteen years ago) link
― Peter Stringbender (PJ Miller), Monday, 18 July 2005 08:56 (eighteen years ago) link
He beats cancer, and becomes one of its biggest spokespersons and fundraisers, but he continues to dope in more and more sophisticated manners and with better and better drugs. As he amasses more loot, he can employ the services of the world's best medical experts on safely doping (and covering up the evidence) so that the woefully inadequate tests currently in use can't detect his cheating abuse.
Following the scandal of the 1998 Tour (Festina nabbed attempting to smuggle massive quantities of drugs into France in a team car, etc.), France (who had just won the World Cup) was in horrible disarray because of the damage done to its most well-known, popular -- and most profitable -- sporting event. The French Ministry Of Youth And Sport spent millions upon millions of dollars on the current post-race urine test for use of EPO.
However, it is currently widely acknowledged amongst doping experts that the test is useless in detecting the practice of "topping off" -- mini doses of EPO (1/5 the normal) administered the night before a big race or a big stage. (The serious EPO doping occurs 1-2 weeks before a stage race). The reason is that the amount of water circulation and blood circulation in the body during a long and hot or mountainous stage of The Tour is quite sufficient to wash away the evidence.
Additionally, drugs far superior to EPO are now on the (black) market including Oxyglobin, SERS, and others.
Lance publically disavowed (in a sympathetic manner) his and USPS/Discovery's relationship with Dr. Michele Ferrari when Ferrari was found guilty in Italy for illegally and inappropriately prescribing and supplying dangerous drugs (Ferrari's the guy who said "taking EPO is like drinking orange juice" ... but guess what?
A few months after this supposed parting-of-ways occurred, Ferrari was seen in Girona (Lance's training base) at a time Lance was there, and rumour has it that Lance has continued to be heavily dependent on Ferrari for his "training methods" -- has been for the last 10 years (at least) and so it makes little sense that he would suddenly stop now and be able continue his superhuman domination of the peloton (many of whom also are doping).
The tragedy of this is two-fold:
1. Lance is perhaps the biggest hypocrite in the world. He gets cancer from doing very dangerous things to his body so that he can cheat at professional sports, and then he uses the disease to his advantage to build an image of a God-like saviour of the terminally ill. EPO and the other drugs Lance used/uses to cheat at sport are specifically developed to treat the terminally ill. It's despicable.
2. Scores of young, poor, and naiive riders continue to literally instantly drop dead from doping, most notably Jose Maria Jiminez in March of this year. This is because incorrect use of EPO and similar drugs thickens the blood and during exercise the heart becomes overworked pumping the thick blood. It gradually is weakened and damaged and there comes a point where massive heart failure occurs.
These riders do not have the money to employ the services of Ferrari or other top "doping doctors". A lot of them are uneducated. They obtain the drugs and advice on how to use them from other riders and then self-administer. Additionally, many of the lesser teams are known to not only be dirty but also not care for their riders, and -- as hard as it may seem to belive -- don't really mind if a few guys drop dead along the way, as long as it keeps the business profitable.
It's one thing to be poor, have a family, and been in desperate need of a paycheck and to turn to doping to enable oneself to compete with others who are doping.
It's quite another thing to engage in this behaviour when you are a multi-multi-millionaire (Lance's fortune is reportedly in the neighborhood of $26 million, and that does not include the huge bonus Discovery will pay him for completing his contract to ride 2005 Tour).
The journalists who wrote the book "La Confidentiel" which exposes Lance's doping are not hacks looking for a quick payout. They are long established cycling journalists. Unfortunately, the only evidence they could obtain and which their publisher was willing to take the legal risk of printing is circumstantial evidence -- but that's expected: if there was any evidence that could hold up in court, the UCI or other authorities or the courts/police would take action.
The journalists are not both French as is commonly believed -- it's not a "French hate Americans" dynamic. The lead writer, David Walsh, is Irish, and he has a long and respected career as a cycling journalist -- until Lance started applying pressure to various teams and riders and other journalists to not talk to him any more. Luckily, Rupert Murdoch (worth billions) is backing up Walsh, and so Lance's bullying has finally encountered a bigger bully.
Lance attempted to have this book banned in France. When that failed he attempted to have a disclaimer page written by himself inserted in every copy: the French courts dismissed his claims and fined him for filing a frivolous lawsuit. However, Lance's attorneys were successful in effectively preventing publishing of the book in America. This is not only because of legal threats, but because of American publishers and American arms of foreign publishers reluctance to publish the book due to the massive popularity of Lance in America -- due to his involvement with cancer, and primarily because of the mindless "America kicks the rest of the world's ass" mentality that unfortunately is so pervasive and powerful in this country.
Lance got ahead of the doping game early on, before doping well-known and before tests were deployed, and even before many of the substances were illegal. He's been able to consistently stay ahead of the game because he is one of the smartest and most savvy guys to ever play the game -- any game. And his monetary fortune was amassed ahead of the curve -- he was becoming a bigger and better paid star faster than the anti-doping forces could work to effectively combat the problem.
Finally, Lance has massively abused his money and power (both legal power, and the power of influence within the peloton) to attempt to destroy the careers of any rider, journalist, or other person who would dare say anything against him: this includes David Walsh, Pierre Ballister, Filippo Simeoni (following The Tour, Lance will face a defamation lawsuit filed by Simeoni in the French courts), and many, many others.
Many are not aware that Lance is hated by a great many in the peloton. He is not a leader like Merckx who was respected by nearly all. Almost every other American cyclist in The Tour hates him (perhaps all except his friend and current teammate George Hincapie) and this includes ex-teammates such as Floyd Landis. One of the world's greatest sprinters, Australian Robbie McEwen hates Lance for his bullying and threats against lesser riders.
Lance is perhaps the greatest sporting fraud of the last 100 years. What is especially sickening is that reportedly he has targeted politics as his second career.
Do you really think that Greg LeMond (rich, famous, and long-since retired) would publically accuse Lance of doping and suffer enormous damage to his popular image amongst Americans (not to mention his friends, comrades, and business relationships within the cycling world) if he hadn't heard the real scoop on matters? Word gets around, and Greg did the right thing -- attempting to stop.
Unfortunately for Greg, America is currently obsessed with Lance kicking the world's ass, just like we were obsessed with the NBA superstars team kicking the world's ass at the Olympics. Nothing apparently will stop this steam-train of nationalistic egomania.
Tyler Hamilton's recent 2-year ban from cycling for homologous blood doping on two occassions is more proof that top (and already rich) American cyclists are abusing our superiour science and medical knowledge to cheat at sports in a dangerous manner motivated by egoism and lust for fame, power, and more money -- or when they are in a rough spot in their careers.
Forget about Lance. He's not hero. The man is bullshit.
― baltostar, Monday, 18 July 2005 14:20 (eighteen years ago) link
― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 18 July 2005 14:26 (eighteen years ago) link
Australian Robbie McEwen hates Lance for his bullying and threats against lesser riders.
This made me laugh.
― 30 Bangin' Tunes That You've Already Got ... IN A DIFFERENT ORDER! (Barry Brune, Monday, 18 July 2005 14:48 (eighteen years ago) link
A) Barry was winning World Series after World Series;B) Everyone else in baseball was Sammy Sosa, Mark McGwire, and dude who wrote the whiny tell-all book.
Hahahahaha did you forget about what happpened at the last Olympics???
― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 18 July 2005 15:06 (eighteen years ago) link
― Teh HoBB (the pirate king), Monday, 18 July 2005 16:03 (eighteen years ago) link
Part of Lance's team once livened up the culture, cos he was deadly as a vulture.
― Hunter (Hunter), Monday, 18 July 2005 16:08 (eighteen years ago) link
If Barry didn't bother playing in the regular season (except for a few games here and there so he could get used to the daily rigours of competition), and spent his whole year training in anticipation of his special invite to join the roster of one of the teams playing in the World Series, then he'd have several championships too.
― 30 Bangin' Tunes That You've Already Got ... IN A DIFFERENT ORDER! (Barry Brune, Monday, 18 July 2005 16:17 (eighteen years ago) link
― 30 Bangin' Tunes That You've Already Got ... IN A DIFFERENT ORDER! (Barry Brune, Monday, 18 July 2005 16:18 (eighteen years ago) link
In spite of this, I think we all miss one important point about Lance. You can see it in any documentary, or his books, he sees only what he wants and will step over anything to get it. He often doesn't see reason or common sense when it steps in the path of what he is after. Most thherefore label him as a selfish egomaniac, which might not be far from the truth, but if he has no sense or thought of the fact that he is screwing others over, then maybe he's not so selfish. Anyway, the traits that make him so difficult to get along with are obviously what enables him to be so successful. Take Jan for example, physiologically better than Lance, and a nice guy to boot. Unfortunately he is not so driven or self-centric to get as far as Lance does every July. Just look at how his marriage broke up. You can tell from reading his book that he would be a pain in the ass to live with.
In spite of being a doped up, lying, impossible-to-live-with egomaniac, I kind of like him, and would love to see him win the TdeF one last time. In years to come, it won't quite be the same without so many people cheering for an all conquering hero, or the rest hoping there is someone else out there who can match him. The fact is he is an inspiration to so many, and needs to be the way he is to do so. And it cannot be denied that he simply is a cut above the rest of us who dreamed of achieving similar feats. One final thought however; we know all top level pro cyclists take drugs, just so they can get to where they want to get, and seemingly take a vow of secrecy when they do, so spare a thought for those like Scotsman David Millar (former TdeF prologue winner), who, unlike Lance, when asked straight up by the press whether he took Epo, his reply was, "well, yeah, sorry, I did"......... It's sad that honesty might not always be the best policy.
― rpvh, Tuesday, 19 July 2005 03:14 (eighteen years ago) link
― rpvh, Tuesday, 19 July 2005 03:20 (eighteen years ago) link
― kingfish (Kingfish), Tuesday, 19 July 2005 04:41 (eighteen years ago) link
You don't think that abuse of drugs meant for specifically terminal medical illnesses can lead to cancer ?
I suggest you visit your personal doctor tomorrow and ask him about that one.
It is very well known in medical science that drug abuse (of many and varied kinds) catalyzes and assists in the development of cancer.
Cancer is a disease where the genetics of the cells are altered so that that they reproduce excessively -- extremely excessively. This genetic modification is often due to the cells' reaction to foreign substances. Have you ever heard of skin cancer? That's caused by too much UV radiation destroying the natural genetics of the epidermus cells.
― baltostar, Tuesday, 19 July 2005 05:26 (eighteen years ago) link
When it comes to having the courage to attempt to put a stop to an out-of-control spiral that is causing scores of otherwise super-healthy and super-fit young men in their early twenties to instantly drop dead from massive heart attacks, I would say that honesty is the only policy.
Paul Kimmage and David Millar are heros. Lance is not.
Dominating the competition and amassing impressive victories, fame and fortune does not constitute heroic behaviour in my view of the world.
What is heroic is those who have the courage to step back from living a lie, who have the courage to disclose the truth, and to stop the poor, ignorant, and desperate from being used as expendable (expendable in the worst sense of that word) pawns in a game of giant profits for corporations.
This isn't like baseball in the US. This isn't Barry Bonds. The deaths from abuse of EPO, HGF, etc. in pro cycling are up in the hundreds.
It's basically young kids who are dying. Cycling is a sport where you either make it or you don't by your very early twenties. Actually, 21 is about the average age where you either get a contract or give it up.
These young guys give it all to the sport ... it's completely exhausting and all-consuming to become a pro cyclist ... you have to train continually almost year round (maybe one month semi-off around Christmas) ... and so these guys are only rolling only one set of dice in life.
It's not like in American sports where you can grab a college degree or a second career in the off-season. In cycling, there is no off-season. And you're dead tired -- exhausted in an armchair, or in bed-- when you're not on your bike.
Finally, I don't believe that all top cyclists are on drugs. Especially in France. The police and the courts are so on top of it these days that it's very difficult to be doping on a French team and not be caught. The French teams themselves have done a 180 from the late 80s.
It's a matter of national image, saving their most treasured and valuable sporting institution. The government got involved and applied serious pressure to the sponsors -- mainly French corporations. This is what has to happen to stop the trend. But first the truth needs to be told.
And many French riders are saying that this year it is "a race at two speeds". The French just can't keep up. No Frenchman is high in the GC. Considering France's long history of producing perhaps the highest percentage of great cyclists of any country, a believable explanation for their lack of success in this year's tour is that the French teams are generally clean, and other teams are not.
I don't know who you are, what you do ... myself, I'm not a professional athlete, so it's not my war to fight. But if something that is incredibly wrong is occurring in my profession then I would take steps to put a stop to it if I could. Not figure out a way to profit from it.
― baltostar, Tuesday, 19 July 2005 06:00 (eighteen years ago) link
― snotty moore, Tuesday, 19 July 2005 11:03 (eighteen years ago) link
― Teh HoBB (the pirate king), Tuesday, 19 July 2005 22:00 (eighteen years ago) link
As you say, there are clean cyclists, but my comment was "top level pro cyclists", ie the top 10, 20, 50, whatever in the Tour. I doubt the honest guys will find themselves in there.
― rpvh, Tuesday, 19 July 2005 23:39 (eighteen years ago) link
What a pesky little detail we have here. I like how we're supposed to accept circumstantial evidence as outright fact, let alone the widescale conspiracy required to sustain the accusations.
The case against Armstrong has always been founded on his assholic personality and fueled by jealousy and rumors. Until there is legitimate proof that he is or was (or more relevatory, one of few) doping, nobody is going to give a shit.
― don weiner (don weiner), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 00:09 (eighteen years ago) link
He learned his lesson, re-evaluated his priorities, and is a much better person because of it. I don't see where the hate is coming from...no one's online making a hate filled post about you because you were an asshole ten years ago, why do you feel the need to do so?
― Matt P., Wednesday, 20 July 2005 01:00 (eighteen years ago) link