Westminster paedo ring

Yeah, my scepticism wasn't towards the claims that some individual men in power were abusers; there seems to be plenty of evidence for that. But the idea of a cabal of politicians killing kids for thrills sounds far more unlikely, the stuff of movies and TV shows like True Detective. So there definitely needs to be more evidence for that than the memories of one man. Based on what the papers have reported, these earlier allegations and investigations seem to be related to the former, not the latter.

I rather hold it should be our conviction by default that those of elevated station habitually molest children, sacrifice and/or eat them, dandle goats, etc. We should demand the furnishment of strong evidence before even considering the suggestion that such indulgences might not be any given blueblood's bread and cheese. And if one or two should by whatever dubious miracle seem to prove semi=human, our sincere faith in the monstrous corruption of the rest must stand unshaken.

even if it wasn't 'covered up' as such, it was ignored.

― Wristy Hurlington (ShariVari), Saturday, 20 December 2014 07:26 (Yesterday)

there's a way in which all the hysteria around this feeds even into sceptical reactions, because it means coverup becomes read as something far more purposive and orchestrated than how these things really transpire

if it weren't already a distinction without difference, the disappearance of the dickens dossier and the assertions of clive driscoll about his removal from relevant investigations and censure look like more than ignorance; perhaps not borne of sinister directives from on high but of institutional inertia and cowardice

nb to cardamon, clearly your post wasn't malicious or deranged in the way some of the hateful nonsense on twitter etc is, but there is still a lot of fanciful speculation around these things that is worth correcting

Why is anyone talking about Satanic death cults in this thread anyway? I'm fairly sure that sexual abuse of children is considerably more widespread than Satanic cult activity, to a degree that makes the comparison ludicrous even if you accept the basic point that this is unlikely to be a grand conspiracy.

If the Nick allegations are true then this is more likely to be the actions of a very small group OR a larger criminal gang that happened to cater to one or two Tory MPs. Above all else I don't believe it would have been that easy to discreetly set up an organised paedophile ring in the heart of Westminster, even in the 70s and 80s, without someone who might have had an interest in exposing it finding out. And I absolutely believe that the police would have looked the other way when powerful people were involved, because we pretty much already know they did with Savile.

The most disturbing aspect of the conspiracy theories are the guys just casually conflating any party or social that may have involved gay MPs at Dolphin Square (where dozens of MPs lived) with supposed child sex abuse parties. You know, "Wiliam Hague, who also lived at Dolphin Square nudge nudge wink wink" or "this dude who happened to once go on holiday with the Portillos".

Allegations of abuse do not, in themselves, echo the testimony of satanic abuse witnesses. Allegations that the same person happened to witness a string of unconnected murders by different powerful individuals who were then able to hush it up but left the witness to tell the tale do echo that testimony, and the testimony of survivors of equally fictitious 'gay s&m' gangs in the 1980s. Which again is not to say it isn't true but does have a bearing on what kind of allegations people have been willing to accept in the past without corroborating evidence.

the interesting thing here is not so much the time honoured traditions of elite social groups having their way with children of the lower orders, but the way the paedophile information exchange enabled previously dispersed sorts of degenerates from prison workers, remedial schoolteachers, the judiciary etc to gather together

they were all the beneficiaries of the radical tolerance engendered by the new left, evident in places like daniel cohn-bendit's anti-authoritarian kindergarten and the (now of course strenuously denied) contacts between pederasty adovcates and the national civil liberties council, so really a politically and socially heterodox movement altogether

Can we have some unpacking of the link you make in the second of these paras

reminds me of The Red Riding books by David Peace

or Kill List

The Cllr Jaconelli thing in Scarborough is much more like Red Riding (xp)

Everyone I know who talks about VIPedophilia is very gallows-humour about its David Peace-ness. Am sure this territory will be covered in a future DP novel.

Can we have some unpacking of the link you make in the second of these paras

― cardamon, Monday, 22 December 2014 14:09 (4 hours ago)

https://twitter.com/r9k_txt/status/547086098351284225

this is interesting re: the paedophile information exchange's relationship with the left

http://ianpace.wordpress.com/2014/06/29/pie-and-the-gay-left-in-britain-the-account-by-lucy-robinson-plus-various-articles-newly-online/

and likewise the idea of digging out, er, 'cabals' comes with anti-semitic and homophobic baggage

genuine question, no snark : why anti-semitic ?

(i understand the homophobic aspect of course .. )

Allegations like these have been a mainstay of the far right for decades. The idea is that a group of Jewish establishment figures (including almost every Jewish MP from the 1970s onwards) have been conspiring to abuse and murder white British children. It's an unsubtle retread of the blood libel.

blimey.
i had no idea of the supposed connection.
i read these accusations/stories, and have never ever made such an association.
and yes, i have lead a very sheltered life.
thank you for explaining.

Prince Andrew, Duke of York, named in underage 'sex slave' lawsuit over claims of forced sexual relations

Alan Dershowitz and Ghislaine (daughter of Bob) Maxwell also accused and deny any wrongdoing. Prince Andrew does seem to have a litany of unsavoury friends, though.

Interesting story, but nothing to do with the Westminster paedo ring allegations.

The idea is that a group of Jewish establishment figures (including almost every Jewish MP from the 1970s onwards) have been conspiring to abuse and murder white British children

There's nothing antisemitic about the Westminster paedo ring allegations as far as I can tell. Some of the names on the Elm Guest House list are/were Jewish, sure, but plenty are not.

The fictitious antisemitic / homophobic allegations have existed for many years. They may be independent of the current set of accusations to some extent but when people say "oh there have been rumours about X, Y or Z for ages", that's often where they come back to.

Interesting story, but nothing to do with the Westminster paedo ring allegations.

I'm aware, it was a "I don't know where to put this so I'm putting it here"-thing, at least related in a people in high places being accused of this etc

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30938755

well that's convenient for him.

Got himself off the hook there you mean?

William Hague paying tribute in the Commmons right now, which seems a quite ridiculously short-sighted thing to do.

going to be interesting reading the tributes.

xpost

William Hague paying tribute in the Commmons right now, which seems a quite ridiculously short-sighted thing to do.

Nah, unless he really went to town, I think they have to take the qualified risk there, send out a safe pair of hands, otherwise their silence turns into a story in itself. Tabloid press has got a pretty free pass for its gushing tributes to Savile when he died, even though they now claim 'everybody knew, we just couldn't risk the legal battle'.

Yeah maybe, in which case they send out the guy whose political career is already basically over. Still wouldn't want to be that guy though when it all comes out.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/leon-brittan-abused-children-westminster-5038101

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/top-tory-leon-brittan-photographed-5037869

do i need to know more about jeffrey epstein or can i go about my life w/o

Ex-Tory MP Harvey Proctor denies any role in Westminster abuse ring

Key Westminster Figures In Child Abuse Papers

gosh, how unfortunate that they're all dead

Ben Fellows, a former child actor, is currently in court for perverting the course of justice over allegations he made about Kenneth Clarke.

There are some absolutely astonishing allegations being made in court right now, the most lurid of which is Fellows' claim that the former Head of the Met's paedophile unit told him that he was aware of a porn film starring Joanna Lumley. Even if that were true I don't really understand what bearing it would have on anything.

Pretty sure Thatcher is going to be named in those papers too but unless they can say why, it isn't much help. Can highlight the dead ones as they can't sue for libel.

If it transpires that Thatcher both knew about this and covered it up then that is the biggest political revelation/scandal of most of our lifetimes, right there. If it isn't already. I'm really surprised this isn't front page news more often as it stands.

Sort of vaguely curious as to how they even went about setting up a covert paedophile ring in the middle of Westminster, it's not the sort of thing you can put on the House of Commons notice board. And there must have been people who weren't directly involved who had an inkling what was going on.

Sir Peter Morrison was very close to Thatcher.

Presumably it was like a 77 private board type arrangement ?

(x-post)

Hah

This is pretty far down the news pages of the bbc and the guardian. It's not even on the opening "splash" page of the guardian. Wtf are they so shy about? The bbc Ireypticence can understand, somewhat.

Er. *The bbc's reticence I can understand, somewhat.

It's on the front page of The Guardian website now. There's no story to tell from the Sky "revelations", though. Unless they can show the context in which the individuals were named (which has not been disclosed) there's barely any point in reporting it.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/03/ted-heath-child-abuse-investigation-police-watchdog-ipcc

This seems extraordinary:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/oct/06/sex-abuse-claim-against-leon-brittan-began-as-joke-bbc-report

The police are effectively telling Panorama not to broadcast the episode given the risk of jeopardising ongoing cases. Panorama are telling the police that vulnerable witnesses were coached into making dubious allegations.

So it seems my speculation upthread may have been correct? (Except that it wasn't a case of childhood false memory syndrome rather than someone making stuff up as an adult.) Or is this "David" some other person than the "Nick" mentioned in the earlier stories?

Oh, okay, sorry, this was mentioned later in the article:

It is understood that David is not the same person as Nick, whose allegations are still being investigated by Operation Midland detectives.

Multiple people have named Leon Brittan though haven't they? This strikes me as extremely dodgy and I'm not really sure what Panorama is up to here.

Well, like I said upthread, there's a long history of child abuse claims leading to hysteria and false convictions, so I'd think it's the duty of journalists to find out whether such allegations have a solid basis? In the US many innocent people spent years in jail before it became apparent the evidence against them was based only on the child "witnesses" being manipulated into giving the answers their interviewers wanted, and/or false memory syndrome, so their convictions were overturned. Paedophilia is real thing and should be taken seriously, but sadly false accusations and "paedo hysteria" are something that can happen too, so that needs to be taken into account as well.

this is the most comprehensive thing I've found setting out the allegations against Brittan:

https://theneedleblog.wordpress.com/2015/08/04/the-long-strange-saga-of-leon-brittan/

there are some intersting articles on that site criticising the conduct of Exaro news, for example:

https://theneedleblog.wordpress.com/2015/08/26/on-the-harvey-proctor-allegations/

https://theneedleblog.wordpress.com/2015/10/01/on-janes-allegation/

Janner dead

Danjuk has chosen his words carefully.