Westminster paedo ring

the problem is the conflation of consensual behaviour with what is being alleged here, rather as the way 'sex scandal' is used to describe adultery and rape alike, 'an initiation or semi-ritual gathering involving sex' is not a meangingful category if it includes both public school dormitory hijinks and the rape and murder of children

the 'all big institutions' claims are rather overstated, the primary social form that facilitates sexual coercion and violence is the primordial sewer of the nuclear family under nature, incest and the fathering of children by daughters being a historical commonplace; every derived patriarchal social forms facillitate it in the same measure

the interesting thing here is not so much the time honoured traditions of elite social groups having their way with children of the lower orders, but the way the paedophile information exchange enabled previously dispersed sorts of degenerates from prison workers, remedial schoolteachers, the judiciary etc to gather together

they were all the beneficiaries of the radical tolerance engendered by the new left, evident in places like daniel cohn-bendit's anti-authoritarian kindergarten and the (now of course strenuously denied) contacts between pederasty adovcates and the national civil liberties council, so really a politically and socially heterodox movement altogether

I don't think one guy's testimony, based on his childhood memories (however much he himself believes all these things really happened), should be enough to make it a fact

The police believe him, that's enough for me and it should also be enough for you.

mmmmmmmmmmm.......

I nearly said something very similar. Then I thought of times gone by.

Yeah, at this exact moment I'm not ready to give the police the benefit of the doubt. Though hopefully we will get more information at some point, we actually don't have to judge rigt now, right?

I don't think one guy's testimony, based on his childhood memories (however much he himself believes all these things really happened), should be enough to make it a fact

The police believe him, that's enough for me and it should also be enough for you.

I'm not sure if you're familiar the satanic ritual abuse hysteria I mentioned above, but if not, check the Wiki link in my post... In several of those cases the police believed abuse stories, the judges and juries believed them too, and many innocent people went to prison for years, until the whole hysteria finally died, their cases were reopened, and they were acquitted. (Though some of them had to sit in prison for over a decade, see this documentary for some particularly depressing stories. Or read Debbie Nathan's Satan's Silence, which is an excellent analysis of how these hysteria's started, explaining false memory syndrome and other factors that contributed into well-meaning psychologists, cops and other law officials sentencing judging loads of people for crimes they never committed.)

Again, I'm not saying abuse doesn't exist or that the cops are necessarily wrong here. But historically, it's well documented that sometimes the police have been wrong about such cases when they were based on nothing else but supposed childhood memories... And this has happened particularly at times when there has been a widely spread social panic that has lead to a "pedo hunt". I don't live in the UK, but it certainly seems like there's a wide pedo hunt going on there at the moment, fueled by the Jimmy Savile revelations and the subsequent arrests. Now, those cases are undeniably true, but maybe the cops feel a bit embarrassed that Savile and co. were allowed to do all that horrific stuff for so long while the law enforcement turned a blind eye on it, so they may have an extra incentive to appear "tough on pedos"? Of course it's their duty to carefully examine all abuse claims, but all I'm saying is that the more outlandish claims (such as this child murder conspiracy) should be treated with appropriate scepticism unless there's some solid evidence to back it up, because there's sad history of innocent people suffering when the officials accepted such claims unconditionally.

But like I said, my comments are based solely on those news stories, where the only evidence presented seems to be the memories of "Nick". If the UK cops have discovered other things that corroborate the story but haven't shared them with the media yet, that's a different story.

Iirc part of the investigation revolves around over 100 files, from 1979 onward, containing statements or allegations made to the authorities and submitted to the Home Secretary, Leon Britten which were subsequently lost or destroyed. To say that the entire case revolves around the allegations of Nick would seem, at this stage, to be incorrect or at least extremely unlikely.

yeah there seems to be a growing mountain of stuff that they have admittedly not completely released (and some of it has gone missing) that has been accumulating for over 30 years.

as to why no one has done anything about it until now, well, that is what is particularly disturbing

I was reading Connie Fletcher's What Cops Know recently and I was struck by how folkloric some of the knowledge cops had seemed to be, e.g., one or two cops were certain that a missing finger on a victim meant a murder was a part of a satanic ritual and that this fact was deserving of knowing grunts and nods from other cops and criminologists. The book was written before satanic ritual abuse was debunked, and I wonder how many cops still cling to their beliefs about that b.s.

I've noticed a similar strain of hysteria and folklore in commentary about child sexual abuse, and although I agree with nakh that the family unit (nuclear or otherwise) is where most child sexual abuse occurs, the big difference between satanic ritual abuse and CSA/CSE is that the former is virtually nonexistent and the latter is incredibly common. It's also not always helpful to characterize CSA/CSE as "pedophilia," I think because that word has a tendency to assign abusers to a category of pathological deviant that is only sexually excited by children lacking secondary sex characteristics rather than to perpetrators who would seem ordinary to us sexually, romantically, personally, etc.

This book-length report on child sexual abuse by Catholic priests came to the conclusion that fewer than 5% of abusers were pedophiles:

http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/child-and-youth-protection/upload/The-Causes-and-Context-of-Sexual-Abuse-of-Minors-by-Catholic-Priests-in-the-United-States-1950-2010.pdf

I don't think that the stock profile of those priests necessarily matches the profiles of the hypothetical MP who visits a sex ring, though.

This ECPAT International report describes a spectrum of child sex tourism offenders, but, similar to the USCCB report above, it claims that most abusers are "situational" abusers and not "preferential child sex tourists" or "paedophiles."

Regardless of whatever the stock profile might be of an abuser who visits a domestic child sex exploitation ring, it's clear that horrific events of institutional child abuse have gone unpunished and under-investigated. No one was ever charged for deaths or murders that occurred at the Florida School for Boys.

Iirc part of the investigation revolves around over 100 files, from 1979 onward, containing statements or allegations made to the authorities and submitted to the Home Secretary, Leon Britten which were subsequently lost or destroyed. To say that the entire case revolves around the allegations of Nick would seem, at this stage, to be incorrect or at least extremely unlikely.

That's what the public enquiry is going to look into. Again, it seems fairly clear that there's a substantial amount of evidence against individuals including Cyril Smith and, even if it wasn't 'covered up' as such, it was ignored.

The allegations that three Tory ministers whose identities the witness, to this day, doesn't know murdered three children (again with no leads as to identity) and this was covered up by a shadowy cabal of senior government figures seem to be, even in the words of papers that accepted their truthfulness implicitly, "uncorroborated'" at this stage.

Yeah, my scepticism wasn't towards the claims that some individual men in power were abusers; there seems to be plenty of evidence for that. But the idea of a cabal of politicians killing kids for thrills sounds far more unlikely, the stuff of movies and TV shows like True Detective. So there definitely needs to be more evidence for that than the memories of one man. Based on what the papers have reported, these earlier allegations and investigations seem to be related to the former, not the latter.

I rather hold it should be our conviction by default that those of elevated station habitually molest children, sacrifice and/or eat them, dandle goats, etc. We should demand the furnishment of strong evidence before even considering the suggestion that such indulgences might not be any given blueblood's bread and cheese. And if one or two should by whatever dubious miracle seem to prove semi=human, our sincere faith in the monstrous corruption of the rest must stand unshaken.

even if it wasn't 'covered up' as such, it was ignored.

― Wristy Hurlington (ShariVari), Saturday, 20 December 2014 07:26 (Yesterday)

there's a way in which all the hysteria around this feeds even into sceptical reactions, because it means coverup becomes read as something far more purposive and orchestrated than how these things really transpire

if it weren't already a distinction without difference, the disappearance of the dickens dossier and the assertions of clive driscoll about his removal from relevant investigations and censure look like more than ignorance; perhaps not borne of sinister directives from on high but of institutional inertia and cowardice

nb to cardamon, clearly your post wasn't malicious or deranged in the way some of the hateful nonsense on twitter etc is, but there is still a lot of fanciful speculation around these things that is worth correcting

Why is anyone talking about Satanic death cults in this thread anyway? I'm fairly sure that sexual abuse of children is considerably more widespread than Satanic cult activity, to a degree that makes the comparison ludicrous even if you accept the basic point that this is unlikely to be a grand conspiracy.

If the Nick allegations are true then this is more likely to be the actions of a very small group OR a larger criminal gang that happened to cater to one or two Tory MPs. Above all else I don't believe it would have been that easy to discreetly set up an organised paedophile ring in the heart of Westminster, even in the 70s and 80s, without someone who might have had an interest in exposing it finding out. And I absolutely believe that the police would have looked the other way when powerful people were involved, because we pretty much already know they did with Savile.

The most disturbing aspect of the conspiracy theories are the guys just casually conflating any party or social that may have involved gay MPs at Dolphin Square (where dozens of MPs lived) with supposed child sex abuse parties. You know, "Wiliam Hague, who also lived at Dolphin Square nudge nudge wink wink" or "this dude who happened to once go on holiday with the Portillos".

Allegations of abuse do not, in themselves, echo the testimony of satanic abuse witnesses. Allegations that the same person happened to witness a string of unconnected murders by different powerful individuals who were then able to hush it up but left the witness to tell the tale do echo that testimony, and the testimony of survivors of equally fictitious 'gay s&m' gangs in the 1980s. Which again is not to say it isn't true but does have a bearing on what kind of allegations people have been willing to accept in the past without corroborating evidence.

the interesting thing here is not so much the time honoured traditions of elite social groups having their way with children of the lower orders, but the way the paedophile information exchange enabled previously dispersed sorts of degenerates from prison workers, remedial schoolteachers, the judiciary etc to gather together

they were all the beneficiaries of the radical tolerance engendered by the new left, evident in places like daniel cohn-bendit's anti-authoritarian kindergarten and the (now of course strenuously denied) contacts between pederasty adovcates and the national civil liberties council, so really a politically and socially heterodox movement altogether

Can we have some unpacking of the link you make in the second of these paras

reminds me of The Red Riding books by David Peace

or Kill List

The Cllr Jaconelli thing in Scarborough is much more like Red Riding (xp)

Everyone I know who talks about VIPedophilia is very gallows-humour about its David Peace-ness. Am sure this territory will be covered in a future DP novel.

Can we have some unpacking of the link you make in the second of these paras

― cardamon, Monday, 22 December 2014 14:09 (4 hours ago)

https://twitter.com/r9k_txt/status/547086098351284225

this is interesting re: the paedophile information exchange's relationship with the left

http://ianpace.wordpress.com/2014/06/29/pie-and-the-gay-left-in-britain-the-account-by-lucy-robinson-plus-various-articles-newly-online/

and likewise the idea of digging out, er, 'cabals' comes with anti-semitic and homophobic baggage

genuine question, no snark : why anti-semitic ?

(i understand the homophobic aspect of course .. )

Allegations like these have been a mainstay of the far right for decades. The idea is that a group of Jewish establishment figures (including almost every Jewish MP from the 1970s onwards) have been conspiring to abuse and murder white British children. It's an unsubtle retread of the blood libel.

blimey.
i had no idea of the supposed connection.
i read these accusations/stories, and have never ever made such an association.
and yes, i have lead a very sheltered life.
thank you for explaining.

Prince Andrew, Duke of York, named in underage 'sex slave' lawsuit over claims of forced sexual relations

Alan Dershowitz and Ghislaine (daughter of Bob) Maxwell also accused and deny any wrongdoing. Prince Andrew does seem to have a litany of unsavoury friends, though.

Interesting story, but nothing to do with the Westminster paedo ring allegations.

The idea is that a group of Jewish establishment figures (including almost every Jewish MP from the 1970s onwards) have been conspiring to abuse and murder white British children

There's nothing antisemitic about the Westminster paedo ring allegations as far as I can tell. Some of the names on the Elm Guest House list are/were Jewish, sure, but plenty are not.

The fictitious antisemitic / homophobic allegations have existed for many years. They may be independent of the current set of accusations to some extent but when people say "oh there have been rumours about X, Y or Z for ages", that's often where they come back to.

Interesting story, but nothing to do with the Westminster paedo ring allegations.

I'm aware, it was a "I don't know where to put this so I'm putting it here"-thing, at least related in a people in high places being accused of this etc

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30938755

well that's convenient for him.

Got himself off the hook there you mean?

William Hague paying tribute in the Commmons right now, which seems a quite ridiculously short-sighted thing to do.

going to be interesting reading the tributes.

xpost

William Hague paying tribute in the Commmons right now, which seems a quite ridiculously short-sighted thing to do.

Nah, unless he really went to town, I think they have to take the qualified risk there, send out a safe pair of hands, otherwise their silence turns into a story in itself. Tabloid press has got a pretty free pass for its gushing tributes to Savile when he died, even though they now claim 'everybody knew, we just couldn't risk the legal battle'.

Yeah maybe, in which case they send out the guy whose political career is already basically over. Still wouldn't want to be that guy though when it all comes out.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/leon-brittan-abused-children-westminster-5038101

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/top-tory-leon-brittan-photographed-5037869

do i need to know more about jeffrey epstein or can i go about my life w/o

Ex-Tory MP Harvey Proctor denies any role in Westminster abuse ring

Key Westminster Figures In Child Abuse Papers

gosh, how unfortunate that they're all dead

Ben Fellows, a former child actor, is currently in court for perverting the course of justice over allegations he made about Kenneth Clarke.

There are some absolutely astonishing allegations being made in court right now, the most lurid of which is Fellows' claim that the former Head of the Met's paedophile unit told him that he was aware of a porn film starring Joanna Lumley. Even if that were true I don't really understand what bearing it would have on anything.

Pretty sure Thatcher is going to be named in those papers too but unless they can say why, it isn't much help. Can highlight the dead ones as they can't sue for libel.

If it transpires that Thatcher both knew about this and covered it up then that is the biggest political revelation/scandal of most of our lifetimes, right there. If it isn't already. I'm really surprised this isn't front page news more often as it stands.

Sort of vaguely curious as to how they even went about setting up a covert paedophile ring in the middle of Westminster, it's not the sort of thing you can put on the House of Commons notice board. And there must have been people who weren't directly involved who had an inkling what was going on.

Sir Peter Morrison was very close to Thatcher.

Presumably it was like a 77 private board type arrangement ?

(x-post)

Hah

This is pretty far down the news pages of the bbc and the guardian. It's not even on the opening "splash" page of the guardian. Wtf are they so shy about? The bbc Ireypticence can understand, somewhat.