Westminster paedo ring

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ot so long ago people wouldn't believe this stuff because no one was on the record and now some people won't believe it, even though people now are on the record. some people don't believe the Bill Cosby stuff despite a tsunami of testimony, so.. you know.

I knew someone would bring the Cosby case up, but I don't think it's comparable at all. With Cosby, you have several women repeating similar stories of what he did to them, and they were all grown-ups when he raped them, so there's no reason to doubt these stories aren't true. Something like false memory syndrome certainly wouldn't explain it. Whereas in this case there seems to be one person telling what happened to him when he was young child decades ago. The possibility that he's suffering from false memory syndrome, or that he simply invented some of this stuff, is much higher than in the Cosby case, where it's zero.

Again, I'm not saying that I think his whole story is false. That there are people with power who use that power to cover their abuse of children is an undeniable fact. But what this guy is saying goes beyond that, he seems to be suggesting that there was/is a conspiracy of paedophile politicians that managed to cover up, among other things, multiple murders. Of course it's not impossible that this really happened, but I don't think one guy's testimony, based on his childhood memories (however much he himself believes all these things really happened), should be enough to make it a fact.

Tuomas, Friday, 19 December 2014 13:32 (four years ago) link

I was wondering if this had to do with the cuts to the police budget?

It has been mentioned, with the subtlety we've come to expect from the British police force, that "investigations into historical abuse" might be compromised by further cuts - which would be fair comment if they'd picked another day to bring it up.

Root It Oot (Tom D.), Friday, 19 December 2014 15:28 (four years ago) link

At the very least people who come from traditionally powerful families, who have been through boarding school and elite universities, would not be out of place at an initiation or semi-ritual gathering involving sex

― cardamon, Friday, 19 December 2014 13:15 (4 hours ago)

jesus, four hours and nobody has noticed this late contender for uk post of the year

Chairman Feinstein (nakhchivan), Friday, 19 December 2014 17:30 (four years ago) link

What exactly goes on at these elite universities then?

Root It Oot (Tom D.), Friday, 19 December 2014 17:32 (four years ago) link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piers_Gaveston_Society

camp event (suzy), Friday, 19 December 2014 17:33 (four years ago) link

inb4

imago, Friday, 19 December 2014 17:34 (four years ago) link

Ian Hislop?!??!

Root It Oot (Tom D.), Friday, 19 December 2014 17:35 (four years ago) link

struck by another's tut

imago, Friday, 19 December 2014 17:36 (four years ago) link

That's fair put me aff ma tea. (xp)

Root It Oot (Tom D.), Friday, 19 December 2014 17:36 (four years ago) link

inb4

― imago, Friday, December 19, 2014 5:34 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

that was def a semi-ritual from your description

tl;dr, gukbar, morbis detrius (wins), Friday, 19 December 2014 17:38 (four years ago) link

Oh well, even for Wiki that doesn't exactly scan like ironclad proof.

ƋППṍӮɨ∏ğڵșěᶉᶇдM℮ (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Friday, 19 December 2014 17:41 (four years ago) link

full turgidity, I protest!

imago, Friday, 19 December 2014 17:41 (four years ago) link

Ironclad what? Oh, proof!

Root It Oot (Tom D.), Friday, 19 December 2014 17:42 (four years ago) link

there is something telling in its low-functioning prurience, the notion that the golden thread is not between like instances of pederasty and violence, a predilection enjoyed by all classes since time immemorial, but between like instances of well-to-do people gathering in dark rooms, every struck jet eventually landing somewhere in the salo republic

Chairman Feinstein (nakhchivan), Friday, 19 December 2014 17:42 (four years ago) link

pshaw.. Bollinger! *spits*

piscesx, Friday, 19 December 2014 17:51 (four years ago) link

this lurid ingenuous nonsense is part of the same tendency that ensures that searching for the name of any jewish politician from the 1980s is likely to find intimations of hideous conspiracy

there is a limitless appetite for unearthing cabals, blood libels and all things sinister, which is all the more unhelpful in instances like this where serious crimes and coverups have happened

Chairman Feinstein (nakhchivan), Friday, 19 December 2014 18:03 (four years ago) link

Hmm wasn't going for 'only toffs are paedos', more that there's this whole history of little clubs and fraternities and societies at the ancient universities and at eton and harrow, wherein people do various excessive things, which are contrary to their public demeanour/role

cardamon, Friday, 19 December 2014 19:08 (four years ago) link

Like fraternities in American university life also help people get into exclusive networks, and help hide abusers, right? Not to mention the general trend for big organisations, closed to most people, whose meetings are necessarily secret to some extent, being places where abusers can get away with it - cf the Catholic church and the BBC

cardamon, Friday, 19 December 2014 19:11 (four years ago) link

But I am aware that the excitement of chasing fictional cabals is a stupid thing to get involved in when a real child may actually have been abused in real life, and likewise the idea of digging out, er, 'cabals' comes with anti-semitic and homophobic baggage, and perhaps worst of all comes with a nice connotation that everything down here on my level is perfectly wholesome, bad stuff only goes on up there in dracula's castle, which is for sure not true

cardamon, Friday, 19 December 2014 19:14 (four years ago) link

the problem is the conflation of consensual behaviour with what is being alleged here, rather as the way 'sex scandal' is used to describe adultery and rape alike, 'an initiation or semi-ritual gathering involving sex' is not a meangingful category if it includes both public school dormitory hijinks and the rape and murder of children

the 'all big institutions' claims are rather overstated, the primary social form that facilitates sexual coercion and violence is the primordial sewer of the nuclear family under nature, incest and the fathering of children by daughters being a historical commonplace; every derived patriarchal social forms facillitate it in the same measure

the interesting thing here is not so much the time honoured traditions of elite social groups having their way with children of the lower orders, but the way the paedophile information exchange enabled previously dispersed sorts of degenerates from prison workers, remedial schoolteachers, the judiciary etc to gather together

they were all the beneficiaries of the radical tolerance engendered by the new left, evident in places like daniel cohn-bendit's anti-authoritarian kindergarten and the (now of course strenuously denied) contacts between pederasty adovcates and the national civil liberties council, so really a politically and socially heterodox movement altogether

Chairman Feinstein (nakhchivan), Friday, 19 December 2014 20:23 (four years ago) link

I don't think one guy's testimony, based on his childhood memories (however much he himself believes all these things really happened), should be enough to make it a fact

The police believe him, that's enough for me and it should also be enough for you.

rising stones cross (anagram), Friday, 19 December 2014 22:48 (four years ago) link

mmmmmmmmmmm.......

I nearly said something very similar. Then I thought of times gone by.

Mark G, Friday, 19 December 2014 23:24 (four years ago) link

Yeah, at this exact moment I'm not ready to give the police the benefit of the doubt. Though hopefully we will get more information at some point, we actually don't have to judge rigt now, right?

Frederik B, Friday, 19 December 2014 23:58 (four years ago) link

I don't think one guy's testimony, based on his childhood memories (however much he himself believes all these things really happened), should be enough to make it a fact

The police believe him, that's enough for me and it should also be enough for you.

I'm not sure if you're familiar the satanic ritual abuse hysteria I mentioned above, but if not, check the Wiki link in my post... In several of those cases the police believed abuse stories, the judges and juries believed them too, and many innocent people went to prison for years, until the whole hysteria finally died, their cases were reopened, and they were acquitted. (Though some of them had to sit in prison for over a decade, see this documentary for some particularly depressing stories. Or read Debbie Nathan's Satan's Silence, which is an excellent analysis of how these hysteria's started, explaining false memory syndrome and other factors that contributed into well-meaning psychologists, cops and other law officials sentencing judging loads of people for crimes they never committed.)

Again, I'm not saying abuse doesn't exist or that the cops are necessarily wrong here. But historically, it's well documented that sometimes the police have been wrong about such cases when they were based on nothing else but supposed childhood memories... And this has happened particularly at times when there has been a widely spread social panic that has lead to a "pedo hunt". I don't live in the UK, but it certainly seems like there's a wide pedo hunt going on there at the moment, fueled by the Jimmy Savile revelations and the subsequent arrests. Now, those cases are undeniably true, but maybe the cops feel a bit embarrassed that Savile and co. were allowed to do all that horrific stuff for so long while the law enforcement turned a blind eye on it, so they may have an extra incentive to appear "tough on pedos"? Of course it's their duty to carefully examine all abuse claims, but all I'm saying is that the more outlandish claims (such as this child murder conspiracy) should be treated with appropriate scepticism unless there's some solid evidence to back it up, because there's sad history of innocent people suffering when the officials accepted such claims unconditionally.

Tuomas, Friday, 19 December 2014 23:59 (four years ago) link

But like I said, my comments are based solely on those news stories, where the only evidence presented seems to be the memories of "Nick". If the UK cops have discovered other things that corroborate the story but haven't shared them with the media yet, that's a different story.

Tuomas, Saturday, 20 December 2014 00:02 (four years ago) link

Iirc part of the investigation revolves around over 100 files, from 1979 onward, containing statements or allegations made to the authorities and submitted to the Home Secretary, Leon Britten which were subsequently lost or destroyed. To say that the entire case revolves around the allegations of Nick would seem, at this stage, to be incorrect or at least extremely unlikely.

Acting Crazy (Instrumental) (jed_), Saturday, 20 December 2014 01:02 (four years ago) link

yeah there seems to be a growing mountain of stuff that they have admittedly not completely released (and some of it has gone missing) that has been accumulating for over 30 years.

akm, Saturday, 20 December 2014 03:47 (four years ago) link

as to why no one has done anything about it until now, well, that is what is particularly disturbing

akm, Saturday, 20 December 2014 03:48 (four years ago) link

I was reading Connie Fletcher's What Cops Know recently and I was struck by how folkloric some of the knowledge cops had seemed to be, e.g., one or two cops were certain that a missing finger on a victim meant a murder was a part of a satanic ritual and that this fact was deserving of knowing grunts and nods from other cops and criminologists. The book was written before satanic ritual abuse was debunked, and I wonder how many cops still cling to their beliefs about that b.s.

I've noticed a similar strain of hysteria and folklore in commentary about child sexual abuse, and although I agree with nakh that the family unit (nuclear or otherwise) is where most child sexual abuse occurs, the big difference between satanic ritual abuse and CSA/CSE is that the former is virtually nonexistent and the latter is incredibly common. It's also not always helpful to characterize CSA/CSE as "pedophilia," I think because that word has a tendency to assign abusers to a category of pathological deviant that is only sexually excited by children lacking secondary sex characteristics rather than to perpetrators who would seem ordinary to us sexually, romantically, personally, etc.

This book-length report on child sexual abuse by Catholic priests came to the conclusion that fewer than 5% of abusers were pedophiles:

http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/child-and-youth-protection/upload/The-Causes-and-Context-of-Sexual-Abuse-of-Minors-by-Catholic-Priests-in-the-United-States-1950-2010.pdf

I don't think that the stock profile of those priests necessarily matches the profiles of the hypothetical MP who visits a sex ring, though.

This ECPAT International report describes a spectrum of child sex tourism offenders, but, similar to the USCCB report above, it claims that most abusers are "situational" abusers and not "preferential child sex tourists" or "paedophiles."

Regardless of whatever the stock profile might be of an abuser who visits a domestic child sex exploitation ring, it's clear that horrific events of institutional child abuse have gone unpunished and under-investigated. No one was ever charged for deaths or murders that occurred at the Florida School for Boys.

bamcquern, Saturday, 20 December 2014 05:11 (four years ago) link

Iirc part of the investigation revolves around over 100 files, from 1979 onward, containing statements or allegations made to the authorities and submitted to the Home Secretary, Leon Britten which were subsequently lost or destroyed. To say that the entire case revolves around the allegations of Nick would seem, at this stage, to be incorrect or at least extremely unlikely.

That's what the public enquiry is going to look into. Again, it seems fairly clear that there's a substantial amount of evidence against individuals including Cyril Smith and, even if it wasn't 'covered up' as such, it was ignored.

The allegations that three Tory ministers whose identities the witness, to this day, doesn't know murdered three children (again with no leads as to identity) and this was covered up by a shadowy cabal of senior government figures seem to be, even in the words of papers that accepted their truthfulness implicitly, "uncorroborated'" at this stage.

Wristy Hurlington (ShariVari), Saturday, 20 December 2014 07:26 (four years ago) link

Yeah, my scepticism wasn't towards the claims that some individual men in power were abusers; there seems to be plenty of evidence for that. But the idea of a cabal of politicians killing kids for thrills sounds far more unlikely, the stuff of movies and TV shows like True Detective. So there definitely needs to be more evidence for that than the memories of one man. Based on what the papers have reported, these earlier allegations and investigations seem to be related to the former, not the latter.

Tuomas, Saturday, 20 December 2014 11:43 (four years ago) link

I rather hold it should be our conviction by default that those of elevated station habitually molest children, sacrifice and/or eat them, dandle goats, etc. We should demand the furnishment of strong evidence before even considering the suggestion that such indulgences might not be any given blueblood's bread and cheese. And if one or two should by whatever dubious miracle seem to prove semi=human, our sincere faith in the monstrous corruption of the rest must stand unshaken.

Adding ease. Adding wonder. Adding (contenderizer), Saturday, 20 December 2014 12:21 (four years ago) link

even if it wasn't 'covered up' as such, it was ignored.

― Wristy Hurlington (ShariVari), Saturday, 20 December 2014 07:26 (Yesterday)

there's a way in which all the hysteria around this feeds even into sceptical reactions, because it means coverup becomes read as something far more purposive and orchestrated than how these things really transpire

if it weren't already a distinction without difference, the disappearance of the dickens dossier and the assertions of clive driscoll about his removal from relevant investigations and censure look like more than ignorance; perhaps not borne of sinister directives from on high but of institutional inertia and cowardice

nb to cardamon, clearly your post wasn't malicious or deranged in the way some of the hateful nonsense on twitter etc is, but there is still a lot of fanciful speculation around these things that is worth correcting

Enterprise Lesotho (nakhchivan), Monday, 22 December 2014 01:35 (four years ago) link

Why is anyone talking about Satanic death cults in this thread anyway? I'm fairly sure that sexual abuse of children is considerably more widespread than Satanic cult activity, to a degree that makes the comparison ludicrous even if you accept the basic point that this is unlikely to be a grand conspiracy.

If the Nick allegations are true then this is more likely to be the actions of a very small group OR a larger criminal gang that happened to cater to one or two Tory MPs. Above all else I don't believe it would have been that easy to discreetly set up an organised paedophile ring in the heart of Westminster, even in the 70s and 80s, without someone who might have had an interest in exposing it finding out. And I absolutely believe that the police would have looked the other way when powerful people were involved, because we pretty much already know they did with Savile.

The most disturbing aspect of the conspiracy theories are the guys just casually conflating any party or social that may have involved gay MPs at Dolphin Square (where dozens of MPs lived) with supposed child sex abuse parties. You know, "Wiliam Hague, who also lived at Dolphin Square nudge nudge wink wink" or "this dude who happened to once go on holiday with the Portillos".

Matt DC, Monday, 22 December 2014 11:59 (four years ago) link

Allegations of abuse do not, in themselves, echo the testimony of satanic abuse witnesses. Allegations that the same person happened to witness a string of unconnected murders by different powerful individuals who were then able to hush it up but left the witness to tell the tale do echo that testimony, and the testimony of survivors of equally fictitious 'gay s&m' gangs in the 1980s. Which again is not to say it isn't true but does have a bearing on what kind of allegations people have been willing to accept in the past without corroborating evidence.

Wristy Hurlington (ShariVari), Monday, 22 December 2014 13:19 (four years ago) link

the interesting thing here is not so much the time honoured traditions of elite social groups having their way with children of the lower orders, but the way the paedophile information exchange enabled previously dispersed sorts of degenerates from prison workers, remedial schoolteachers, the judiciary etc to gather together

they were all the beneficiaries of the radical tolerance engendered by the new left, evident in places like daniel cohn-bendit's anti-authoritarian kindergarten and the (now of course strenuously denied) contacts between pederasty adovcates and the national civil liberties council, so really a politically and socially heterodox movement altogether

Can we have some unpacking of the link you make in the second of these paras

cardamon, Monday, 22 December 2014 14:09 (four years ago) link

reminds me of The Red Riding books by David Peace

Brio2, Monday, 22 December 2014 15:15 (four years ago) link

or Kill List

a drug by the name of WORLD WITHOUT END (Jon Lewis), Monday, 22 December 2014 15:19 (four years ago) link

The Cllr Jaconelli thing in Scarborough is much more like Red Riding (xp)

Root It Oot (Tom D.), Monday, 22 December 2014 15:21 (four years ago) link

Everyone I know who talks about VIPedophilia is very gallows-humour about its David Peace-ness. Am sure this territory will be covered in a future DP novel.

camp event (suzy), Monday, 22 December 2014 15:22 (four years ago) link

Can we have some unpacking of the link you make in the second of these paras

― cardamon, Monday, 22 December 2014 14:09 (4 hours ago)

https://twitter.com/r9k_txt/status/547086098351284225

Enterprise Lesotho (nakhchivan), Monday, 22 December 2014 18:21 (four years ago) link

this is interesting re: the paedophile information exchange's relationship with the left

http://ianpace.wordpress.com/2014/06/29/pie-and-the-gay-left-in-britain-the-account-by-lucy-robinson-plus-various-articles-newly-online/

soref, Monday, 22 December 2014 19:26 (four years ago) link

and likewise the idea of digging out, er, 'cabals' comes with anti-semitic and homophobic baggage

genuine question, no snark : why anti-semitic ?

(i understand the homophobic aspect of course .. )

mark e, Monday, 22 December 2014 20:26 (four years ago) link

Allegations like these have been a mainstay of the far right for decades. The idea is that a group of Jewish establishment figures (including almost every Jewish MP from the 1970s onwards) have been conspiring to abuse and murder white British children. It's an unsubtle retread of the blood libel.

Wristy Hurlington (ShariVari), Monday, 22 December 2014 20:32 (four years ago) link

blimey.
i had no idea of the supposed connection.
i read these accusations/stories, and have never ever made such an association.
and yes, i have lead a very sheltered life.
thank you for explaining.

mark e, Monday, 22 December 2014 20:34 (four years ago) link

Alan Dershowitz and Ghislaine (daughter of Bob) Maxwell also accused and deny any wrongdoing. Prince Andrew does seem to have a litany of unsavoury friends, though.

Wristy Hurlington (ShariVari), Friday, 2 January 2015 14:22 (four years ago) link

Interesting story, but nothing to do with the Westminster paedo ring allegations.

The idea is that a group of Jewish establishment figures (including almost every Jewish MP from the 1970s onwards) have been conspiring to abuse and murder white British children

There's nothing antisemitic about the Westminster paedo ring allegations as far as I can tell. Some of the names on the Elm Guest House list are/were Jewish, sure, but plenty are not.

you've got no fans you've got no ground (anagram), Friday, 2 January 2015 14:24 (four years ago) link

The fictitious antisemitic / homophobic allegations have existed for many years. They may be independent of the current set of accusations to some extent but when people say "oh there have been rumours about X, Y or Z for ages", that's often where they come back to.

Wristy Hurlington (ShariVari), Friday, 2 January 2015 14:31 (four years ago) link

Interesting story, but nothing to do with the Westminster paedo ring allegations.

I'm aware, it was a "I don't know where to put this so I'm putting it here"-thing, at least related in a people in high places being accused of this etc

a pleasant little psychedelic detour in the elevator (Amory Blaine), Friday, 2 January 2015 14:49 (four years ago) link


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