Search and Destroy the previous generation of sci-fi tv shows (Farscape, Lexx, Andromeda, StarGate SG1, Babylon 5, Space Precinct, various Star Trek shows and more)

Think one difference maybe that newer shows are ever more aware of something called a 'fan'

So bummed about the Sorbs being a xtian right winger, he seemed like such a cool dude

TNG had a ton of cheesiness and hammy acting, but I'd argue it was in the spirit of TOS and more forgivable because of it; also there were many truly great standalone episodes ("The Inner Light") and probably my favorite series finale ever

xp please, like there weren't diehard Trekkies through the 70s and 80s. some of them even wrote for TNG/DS9!

i think TNG may have had an inkling of the existence of fans

Yeah I mean 'newer' in a long term sense

But like, put the first Star Trek, TNG, Buffy and Fringe in a line and with each new show chronologically the Fan gets ever more essential to 'a fantasy or sci fi show', doesn't it?

When I was about maybe 8-12, some of the monsters in X-Files terrified me for years and I'd be surprised if they weren't the best part of the show. The Tapeworm monster, the stretchy guy, the vampires, the bat creature, the inbred hillbillies, the black guy who could bend into tiny spaces and stared wide eyed. The part when that guy vomited black goo.

Well, yeah. Mostly because of the Internet. I think the x-files named a season two character after a fan who posted on the listserv about the show

Xpost

xp Yeah, I see your point - like the technology itself, people moving from in-person conventions and hand-typed letters to BBSs/Usenet in the 90s and then to full-blown internet pop culture media opus sites like Television Without Pity, AVClub, etc. accelerated this stuff. I honestly don't think the writers in the room, even today, really are affected by all that much about the fanwanking as the show as being produced all that much, though. Nor do TV executives who greenlight these shows. But that's hard to prove/disprove either way, I suppose...

But like, put the first Star Trek, TNG, Buffy and Fringe in a line and with each new show chronologically the Fan gets ever more essential to 'a fantasy or sci fi show', doesn't it?

― cardamon, Monday, 15 December 2014

I wouldn't have thought so. Obviously getting viewer feedback is easier now. But a lot of the previous generation shows were aimed more directly at science fiction fans, probably needed the fan support more and probably alienated general audiences. So I thought the fan community element would be tighter.
Buffy, Heroes, Lost, Game Of Thrones are less embarrassing for civilians to admit to watching.

Hmm

You know what was a corny '90s Sci-Fi (erm, twist!) gem? The Adventures of Brisco County, Jr.

xp I guess when I say 'fan', I'm not so much thinking about the people who have blogs full of pictures of Captain Kirk if he was a leopard, or who go to conventions. Maybe fan isn't the term I'm looking for.

To paraphrase it: the first Star Trek series (1960s iirc) seems like it was aimed at, assumed, a broad audience, in terms of age and occupation and interest. You might watch it if you were a kid and wanted fantastic adventures, or maybe you're an adult who generally watches cop shows or detective stuff or westerns, you've got Kirk there who would have existed happily in any of those two. Anyone who wants a traditional, macho American hero basically. Also the space race was a big deal in American culture at that time.

By the time TNG comes around (90s again iirc), the demographics have hardened up, and aside from yr people who go to conventions, there now exists a general demographic called 'People who specifically want to watch sci fi tv shows'.

You can prob say the same about Dr Who, if you compare the 60s era to the late 80s era?

I'm not sure where I'm going with this, tbh

I get what you mean. That's why I saw the blow up of the X files ratings in season four and five as the crucial moment when networks realized they could target sf to non-niche audiences if they cast sexy actors and made things dark and serious, which ended up leading to Lost

Yeah. I've got problems with Game of Thrones, but that's an example of very clever fantasy product design in that it's somehow managed to get the devotional Fans with a capital F, plus the Critics with a capital C, plus a large general following on board

(Another little thing. Not contradicting President Keyes point, but on X files fandom. I wasn't old enough to be involved in the X-Files when it was first broadcast. I used to read Fortean Times and stuff on train journeys a kid, and was vaguely aware that there were people who were really into it, on something called 'the internet'. I watched it all recently and I can totally see how Mulder and Scully's relationship, their secretive burrowing around together in the fringes and margins, and you as the viewer allowed to join in, creates this really compelling subversive thing and why people were so, so into it as 'Fans' ... as opposed to the earlier, optimistic, bright, open, and inclusive world of the 60s Star Trek)

I was going to talk about this in the comics thread but it might fit here. There are some older comic creators complaining about cosplayers, tv/movie media guests ruining comic conventions.
I have little sympathy for their complaints about cosplayers (often sexist) but I think there probably is some grounds for complaining about some of the tv/movie stuff.

I've heard that some of the tv/movie guests are pushing out some of the comic creators despite the enormity of these conventions. Some have talked about comics people being priced out of some events. As if they're getting pushed out their own party by rich people.

I think it's the content of the tv shows and movies that angers people, they aren't seen as cult enough or relevant enough to deserve the support of this crowd, but isn't the crowd changing? I've been surprised by what tv shows and movies get promoted at Comicon.
SF tv shows have shared the same space as comic stores for decades and I think they felt there was some mutual support benefits from the association. Horror films, genre books, table top fantasy games, culty stuff in general.

Does any of this really matter? Maybe Comicon will turn into Moviecon but there are so many other conventions that maybe that convention can be safely abandoned.

Can certainly imagine people who work in TV being really good at pushing into places and networking and promoting themselves, more so than people who write comics

Wd be interested to hear more about their complaints about cosplayers, that's a phenomena I have no contact with whatsoever (though I'm sure it happens in the UK too)

conventions are horrible

at least in their current massive cross-promotional platform incarnation

I used to like them as a kid when it was just about digging through piles of back issues and chance meetings w random comics celebrities

Never been to a comic convention, but I have been to a Star Trek one. The worst thing about them is that they are insanely expensive for what you get.

The soothingness of TNG is kind of incredible to look back on. The main crew members are all so level. There's absolutely no chance of their ever letting you down. Even when conflicts arise, there tend to be legitimate moral considerations on either side. You seldom see anyone acting selfishly or capriciously. Within the confines of this very sedate understanding of human nature, it's about as rich and persuasive a show as I can imagine.

Wd be interested to hear more about their complaints about cosplayers, that's a phenomena I have no contact with whatsoever (though I'm sure it happens in the UK too)

― cardamon, Monday, 15 December 2014

It's not that different from the sexist gamergate shit. You might not want to read it.

I guess what other people find soothing about TNG I find boring

i hadn't really watched it in years anyway but i feel the moment that ruined star trek for me—tng esp—was when i had a roommate who was watching it straight through and it struck me just how much of the time-filling writing/acting in every single episode was one guy giving another guy orders for where to steer the ship

― j., Monday, December 15, 2014 1:32 AM (15 hours ago)

reminds me of this, from a roger ebert review of a latter-day trek film:

I've also had it with the force shield that protects the Enterprise. The power on this thing is always going down. In movie after movie after movie I have to sit through sequences during which the captain is tersely informed that the front shield is down to 60 percent, or the back shield is down to 10 percent, or the side shield is leaking energy, and the captain tersely orders that power be shifted from the back to the sides or all put in the front, or whatever, and I'm thinking, life is too short to sit through 10 movies in which the power is shifted around on these shields. The shields have been losing power for decades now, and here it is the Second Generation of Star Trek, and they still haven't fixed them. Maybe they should get new batteries.

'Soothing & comforting & boring all at once' may be what marks out 'genre' shows aimed at 'fans', dunno?

i think with the NAVIGATION SCENELETS what really irked me is, look, it's in the nature of television that episodes will repeat whatever dramatic and expository and structuring formulas they happen upon that seem like effective ways of maintaining a well-working, watchable show. that's why you get quotidian filler moments in police procedurals where the cops review the scene, where they replay the scene to their lieutenants, where they soothe victims' family members. that's why you get legal drama filler where the lawyers have to do bail hearings. of course, these kinds of things often provide opportunities for variation. but on TNG especially, with the formality of the quasi-military discipline of the federation behind things, it seemed like too many of these scenelets were waaaaaaay too thin, puffed up with little more than the pomp of giving-and-obeying-orders. ceremoniousness for the sake of ceremoniousness.

Thinking about BSG, I agree that it wasn't always as psychologically profound as it wanted to be, but I thought Crashdown's transformation on Kobol was pretty fantastic, where you could see how a series of increasingly desperate actions were actually coming from a feeling of horrible guilt that he deflects onto others. You'd never see anything remotely like that in TNG.

haha i always loved it when ebert got cranky about stuff like that

Years ago I tried to watch Babylon 5 and got as far as the end of first season, but I was kinda turned off by the second-rate actors.

every time I have showed someone B5 I've stressed that they have to be very forgiving with the first half of S1. The pilot was SHITE, and the 1st season a little slow to get going.

I imagine that the jokes made about Babylon 5 in Spaced and Big Bang Theory are based on a lot of people being divided on the show?

I am suprised BBT even has the remotest amount of actual cred to mention B5 in the first place, tbh.

Going back a ways, has anyone watched Space 1999 anytime recently? I loved it when it was first on, when I was maybe 9 or so, but I haven't seen it since. No idea how it holds up. I imagine it's not very good.

I feel like we're still waiting for the great post-trek sci fi series. like BSG had incredible stuff but blew a lot of its potential in pursuit of such tedious bullshit, and for all the great acting on the show there was a lot of straining for great acting from mediocre talents.

idk I think in some ways my ideal sci fi series would involve characters like the desperate and grounded regular blue collar types who were in the first 'alien' movie and not admirals or hotshot fighter pilots or multicolored aliens or hyper intelligent cyborgs or w/e.

as others have said, it's a good time for a proper new Trek series. apparently Bryan Fuller has tried to get one off the ground several times - that would be amazing.

It's a bit of a tough question what to do with a Trek series at this point. Space exploration has been done three times. They've done a space station. They've done a ship lost in space. A series focusing on Starfleet Academy or on Federation government might be fun, but that would mean departing from the convention of an ensemble cast of bridge officers.

Plz no starfleet.

A series based on the destiny trilogy books would be awesome.

Wld watch a trek where our POV was not the federation

My dream SF show would be an HBO adaptation of the Culture novels.

Going back to the comic conventions discussion, you should know that TV shows like Wonderfalls and Pushing Daisies were on the circuit when they were on.

I wonder if there's any contingent of Homeland fans who consider it a prequel to Pushing Daisies

Something weird about TNG was that they shot it all on film, but they used video lighting (limited shadows/shades, everything equally bright) for most of the episodes. I guess it didn't matter with shitty 1980s TV sets.

I would like a space exploration show that used realistic physics i.e. no warp drive, no wormholes. They get to the next star system and they're in a different century.

A new ST show with a non-Federation focus would be cool, yeah. They did try that a bit in DS9, with Kira and Odo and Quark all being non-Starfleet and from outside the Federation... But by the Dominion war arc Kira and Odo were pretty much doing the same things as the Starfleet characters, only Quark remained a true outsider. I did love Quark's occasional anti-Federation rants, a new series should have a viewpoint like that, with the Federation not automatically being accepted as an all-benevolent organization. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of the utopianism in TNG, but that aspect has already been done, so a non-utopian ST series could be fun.

I'd like to see a series set at starfleet command concerned with political machinations, house of cards style. An outwardly utopian culty org like the Feds are gonna have a seedy underbelly rife with greed and corruption.

That's basically what DS9 grew to be, although not to the level of venal self-interested levels that are common in today's political dramas.

I chuckled when Section 31 got a nod in Into Darkness

This probably isn't a fair criticism but whenever I watched Deadwood intermittently without knowing the backstory I still found it brilliant and fascinating.
But whenever I watch modern Battlestar Gallactica in the same manner it's a complete slog. I've watched over half the show out of order with my sister (who loves it, she has watched it all many times). I guess sometimes some things really do need to be seen from the start; but not finding it at all enjoyable makes me sure I'll probably never watch it from the start.

Nicki Clyne is super gorgeous though. Seems she hasn't been on film or tv for 4 years.