Search and Destroy the previous generation of sci-fi tv shows (Farscape, Lexx, Andromeda, StarGate SG1, Babylon 5, Space Precinct, various Star Trek shows and more)

what do you mean by "expired?"

xp heh Continuum is on my backlog...

Sarah Connor Chronicles was so relentlessly miserable, I kind of had to love it, especially in the second season when things got even more timey-wimey and split-timeline-consequencey

There's also a ton of 1 or 2 season aborted attempts like Firefly, Dollhouse, Alphas, etc... but I guess we're sort of getting off-topic here

oops, i meant inspired

Against your theory I place "The Sarah Connor Chronicles" (from a few years ago) and "Continuum" (currently airing) -- neither of which is a space-ensemble show, but both of which definitely occupy that middle space where they are laboring (and succeeding!) to be something other than total shit, but which also don't aspire to be seen as "quality TV"

Orphan Black might fit in here as well.

There's just a glut of mid-to-low level SF/Fantasy tv these days. most of it ignored by me (and probably by you) like The 100, Warehouse 13, The Tomorrow People, Forever.

I have enjoyed the 100. Basically takes bits from Lost and BSG (including some actors) and smashes them together is a way that is only occasionally annoying.

(ctrl-f'ing 'Fringe')

Also: Fringe!

Fringe was next-level tho

imo the dividing line between old school sf tv and new was the success of the X-Files

Is Continuum worth watching? I've had it on my Netflix list for a while now, but haven't yet tried it.

As much as I dug the mythology stuff initially, X-Files really should've been more of a TNG-style sci-fi procedural. Would've no doubt helped its long-term cultural cachet.

Oh, and The 100 also has elements of Earth 2.

His Amazing Spider-Man run had some good stuff in it, but was often derailed by editorial decisions

― Nhex, Monday, 15 December 2014

I think just as many, if not more of the infamous choices were his own too.

Fringe was next-level tho

― ancient texts, things that can't be pre-dated (President Keyes), Monday, 15 December 2014

Next level of what? I never watched it but the promo images gave me a bad vibe.

Heroes was astonishingly dull from the episodes I saw.

Is Continuum worth watching?

Complicated question! In some fundamental sense it's pretty badly made, and yet I find myself authentically looking forward to when a new season goes up. I'd try it.

xpost Fringe is probably the best new school sf show. Don't want to start a Fringe discussion here. There's a huge thread for that

The Monster of the Week episodes of the X-Files went a bit kooky and not so serious once the long-term conspiracy plot kicked off, which was a shame, because the one about the man who can fit into small spaces and lives in a nest of bile, and the one about the tapeworm man, were absolutely terrifying and kept me awake for two nights when I watched them recently

Against your theory I place "The Sarah Connor Chronicles" (from a few years ago) and "Continuum" (currently airing) -- neither of which is a space-ensemble show, but both of which definitely occupy that middle space where they are laboring (and succeeding!) to be something other than total shit, but which also don't aspire to be seen as "quality TV"

Yeah, I buy this. My picture of what's going on in American tv sci-fi isn't so clear as I'm watching from the UK

xp you're probably right RAG
Heroes had a great first season, then immediately fell down the shitter
I tried the first half season of Fringe when it was on the air, couldn't stick with it, but from most accounts it picked up in quality huge within a couple of years
Never probably would've watched X-Files without the conspiracy angle, that's what hooked me in, but I was a strictly casual on-off viewer anyway

I felt the same way about X-Files back in the day. Hindsight and nine seasons of Chris Carter's unfocused ambling helped me appreciate the monster of the week episodes as the real meat of the show.

Re: acting in Next Generation. In the most recent episodes I saw, I remember a particularly absurd scene of Ryker fighting a superpowered old man. It looked as dumb as Hasselhoff wrestling an alligator in Baywatch.

Also some episodes really bad scripting with Data trying to understand behaviour of other people, that belonged in really bad 50s b-movies and post-code 50s comic book bland SF. But Data was generally the thing I liked best about the show.

I never mind a bit of off-topic digressions. Throw in lesser known new stuff and similar geek fantasy like Buffy/Angel, Xena/Hercules, Mortal Kombat, that old Neil Gaiman show and anything else. As long as we aren't overwhelmed with superhero talk and bitching about celebrities.

Think one difference maybe that newer shows are ever more aware of something called a 'fan'

So bummed about the Sorbs being a xtian right winger, he seemed like such a cool dude

TNG had a ton of cheesiness and hammy acting, but I'd argue it was in the spirit of TOS and more forgivable because of it; also there were many truly great standalone episodes ("The Inner Light") and probably my favorite series finale ever

xp please, like there weren't diehard Trekkies through the 70s and 80s. some of them even wrote for TNG/DS9!

i think TNG may have had an inkling of the existence of fans

Yeah I mean 'newer' in a long term sense

But like, put the first Star Trek, TNG, Buffy and Fringe in a line and with each new show chronologically the Fan gets ever more essential to 'a fantasy or sci fi show', doesn't it?

When I was about maybe 8-12, some of the monsters in X-Files terrified me for years and I'd be surprised if they weren't the best part of the show. The Tapeworm monster, the stretchy guy, the vampires, the bat creature, the inbred hillbillies, the black guy who could bend into tiny spaces and stared wide eyed. The part when that guy vomited black goo.

Well, yeah. Mostly because of the Internet. I think the x-files named a season two character after a fan who posted on the listserv about the show

Xpost

xp Yeah, I see your point - like the technology itself, people moving from in-person conventions and hand-typed letters to BBSs/Usenet in the 90s and then to full-blown internet pop culture media opus sites like Television Without Pity, AVClub, etc. accelerated this stuff. I honestly don't think the writers in the room, even today, really are affected by all that much about the fanwanking as the show as being produced all that much, though. Nor do TV executives who greenlight these shows. But that's hard to prove/disprove either way, I suppose...

But like, put the first Star Trek, TNG, Buffy and Fringe in a line and with each new show chronologically the Fan gets ever more essential to 'a fantasy or sci fi show', doesn't it?

― cardamon, Monday, 15 December 2014

I wouldn't have thought so. Obviously getting viewer feedback is easier now. But a lot of the previous generation shows were aimed more directly at science fiction fans, probably needed the fan support more and probably alienated general audiences. So I thought the fan community element would be tighter.
Buffy, Heroes, Lost, Game Of Thrones are less embarrassing for civilians to admit to watching.

Hmm

You know what was a corny '90s Sci-Fi (erm, twist!) gem? The Adventures of Brisco County, Jr.

xp I guess when I say 'fan', I'm not so much thinking about the people who have blogs full of pictures of Captain Kirk if he was a leopard, or who go to conventions. Maybe fan isn't the term I'm looking for.

To paraphrase it: the first Star Trek series (1960s iirc) seems like it was aimed at, assumed, a broad audience, in terms of age and occupation and interest. You might watch it if you were a kid and wanted fantastic adventures, or maybe you're an adult who generally watches cop shows or detective stuff or westerns, you've got Kirk there who would have existed happily in any of those two. Anyone who wants a traditional, macho American hero basically. Also the space race was a big deal in American culture at that time.

By the time TNG comes around (90s again iirc), the demographics have hardened up, and aside from yr people who go to conventions, there now exists a general demographic called 'People who specifically want to watch sci fi tv shows'.

You can prob say the same about Dr Who, if you compare the 60s era to the late 80s era?

I'm not sure where I'm going with this, tbh

I get what you mean. That's why I saw the blow up of the X files ratings in season four and five as the crucial moment when networks realized they could target sf to non-niche audiences if they cast sexy actors and made things dark and serious, which ended up leading to Lost

Yeah. I've got problems with Game of Thrones, but that's an example of very clever fantasy product design in that it's somehow managed to get the devotional Fans with a capital F, plus the Critics with a capital C, plus a large general following on board

(Another little thing. Not contradicting President Keyes point, but on X files fandom. I wasn't old enough to be involved in the X-Files when it was first broadcast. I used to read Fortean Times and stuff on train journeys a kid, and was vaguely aware that there were people who were really into it, on something called 'the internet'. I watched it all recently and I can totally see how Mulder and Scully's relationship, their secretive burrowing around together in the fringes and margins, and you as the viewer allowed to join in, creates this really compelling subversive thing and why people were so, so into it as 'Fans' ... as opposed to the earlier, optimistic, bright, open, and inclusive world of the 60s Star Trek)

I was going to talk about this in the comics thread but it might fit here. There are some older comic creators complaining about cosplayers, tv/movie media guests ruining comic conventions.
I have little sympathy for their complaints about cosplayers (often sexist) but I think there probably is some grounds for complaining about some of the tv/movie stuff.

I've heard that some of the tv/movie guests are pushing out some of the comic creators despite the enormity of these conventions. Some have talked about comics people being priced out of some events. As if they're getting pushed out their own party by rich people.

I think it's the content of the tv shows and movies that angers people, they aren't seen as cult enough or relevant enough to deserve the support of this crowd, but isn't the crowd changing? I've been surprised by what tv shows and movies get promoted at Comicon.
SF tv shows have shared the same space as comic stores for decades and I think they felt there was some mutual support benefits from the association. Horror films, genre books, table top fantasy games, culty stuff in general.

Does any of this really matter? Maybe Comicon will turn into Moviecon but there are so many other conventions that maybe that convention can be safely abandoned.

Can certainly imagine people who work in TV being really good at pushing into places and networking and promoting themselves, more so than people who write comics

Wd be interested to hear more about their complaints about cosplayers, that's a phenomena I have no contact with whatsoever (though I'm sure it happens in the UK too)

conventions are horrible

at least in their current massive cross-promotional platform incarnation

I used to like them as a kid when it was just about digging through piles of back issues and chance meetings w random comics celebrities

Never been to a comic convention, but I have been to a Star Trek one. The worst thing about them is that they are insanely expensive for what you get.

The soothingness of TNG is kind of incredible to look back on. The main crew members are all so level. There's absolutely no chance of their ever letting you down. Even when conflicts arise, there tend to be legitimate moral considerations on either side. You seldom see anyone acting selfishly or capriciously. Within the confines of this very sedate understanding of human nature, it's about as rich and persuasive a show as I can imagine.

Wd be interested to hear more about their complaints about cosplayers, that's a phenomena I have no contact with whatsoever (though I'm sure it happens in the UK too)

― cardamon, Monday, 15 December 2014

It's not that different from the sexist gamergate shit. You might not want to read it.

I guess what other people find soothing about TNG I find boring

i hadn't really watched it in years anyway but i feel the moment that ruined star trek for me—tng esp—was when i had a roommate who was watching it straight through and it struck me just how much of the time-filling writing/acting in every single episode was one guy giving another guy orders for where to steer the ship

― j., Monday, December 15, 2014 1:32 AM (15 hours ago)

reminds me of this, from a roger ebert review of a latter-day trek film:

I've also had it with the force shield that protects the Enterprise. The power on this thing is always going down. In movie after movie after movie I have to sit through sequences during which the captain is tersely informed that the front shield is down to 60 percent, or the back shield is down to 10 percent, or the side shield is leaking energy, and the captain tersely orders that power be shifted from the back to the sides or all put in the front, or whatever, and I'm thinking, life is too short to sit through 10 movies in which the power is shifted around on these shields. The shields have been losing power for decades now, and here it is the Second Generation of Star Trek, and they still haven't fixed them. Maybe they should get new batteries.

'Soothing & comforting & boring all at once' may be what marks out 'genre' shows aimed at 'fans', dunno?

i think with the NAVIGATION SCENELETS what really irked me is, look, it's in the nature of television that episodes will repeat whatever dramatic and expository and structuring formulas they happen upon that seem like effective ways of maintaining a well-working, watchable show. that's why you get quotidian filler moments in police procedurals where the cops review the scene, where they replay the scene to their lieutenants, where they soothe victims' family members. that's why you get legal drama filler where the lawyers have to do bail hearings. of course, these kinds of things often provide opportunities for variation. but on TNG especially, with the formality of the quasi-military discipline of the federation behind things, it seemed like too many of these scenelets were waaaaaaay too thin, puffed up with little more than the pomp of giving-and-obeying-orders. ceremoniousness for the sake of ceremoniousness.

Thinking about BSG, I agree that it wasn't always as psychologically profound as it wanted to be, but I thought Crashdown's transformation on Kobol was pretty fantastic, where you could see how a series of increasingly desperate actions were actually coming from a feeling of horrible guilt that he deflects onto others. You'd never see anything remotely like that in TNG.