Depression and what it's really like

i take your point and sorry.

i suppose i have thought of this line of argument before, but a lot of it really occurred to me all at once this past year when i was extremely depressed (haha like totally not like now), literally could get no help from my parents while in miserable financial/work circumstances, and---suddenly getting into a facebook argument with a very pious and self-righteous friendly acquaintance from college who as a liberal lutheran-anglican was trying to be permissive-but-profound about abortion being acceptable but some cases of abortion being evil (he was referring to selective abortion of fetuses known to have genetic disorders, and expected to have profound disabilities, presumably where parents decided on the basis of, say, 'welp that's too much of a hassle'). (i was trying to take issue with the polarization of some abortions as 'just evil', since this guy was such a constant advocate for finding the middle ground in morality, politics, etc., and not being divisive.) it was a touchy argument because the friendquaintance has family with a child with a similar problem, and he read all kinds of unintended implications off my side in it, which i was not sensitive enough to take precautions about.

but while i was having that argument, and having people say 'of course every life is valuable', and having to deny that i was saying anything like 'some people's lives are not valuable', i was really profoundly angered by what seemed like this unbridgeable disparity between being a parent of a child, and being the child. you can care as much as you want, show as much belief as you can in the value of the life of your child regardless of its quality, but it's still their life that they're living, and if you think that it is not desirable to live some lives (they're not lives anyone would choose, if they had a choice), i think you have to admit that you as a parent may come to be responsible for—cause to exist—a life that it is not desirable to live (from the inside, as it were). and that this possibility gave a reason not just for abortion, but for not having kids at all.

to me, (others') refusing even to hear that seemed like it was also just an outright denial of the loneliness of depression, which i think you could think of as just a particularly unhappy side of our each being separate people with individual lives.

I was thinking about this thread last night and remembered something my dad said which made me laugh considering the context of the discussion that happened here last week. Surprisingly and to their credit, my parents have always been very good about not asking me about kids because I think they know that things have been complicated for me. Occasionally though they will say something. The last time I visited my dad and I were talking and he point blank said, "Don't you want kids?". I answered that I did but that it wasn't the right time and that I thought that if for some reason it never happened for me I'd be pretty happy traveling and doing a lot of things I might have to sacrifice if I do have kids to which he responded, "Don't you think that's a little selfish?". The weird thing is that I don't even think he meant it in terms of selfish that i'd be depriving him of grandchildren (i don't think he particularly likes kids) but more so in terms of depriving the world of my offspring? Idk. It was weird.

When you have one or more kids your life is dragged helter-skelter toward being other-oriented to a degree that is extremely difficult to replicate through alternate means. You become their servant, teacher, nurse and protector rolled into one. Older parents have been doing this for so long that they often come to view it as the one ordained path of responsible adulthood and anything less than this total devotion to your kids is selfish. They are wrong, but it is hard to penetrate all that habitual self-abnegation to convince them they are wrong.

Very interesting and quite possible otm in terms of where he was coming from.

*possibly*

in view of what people without kids seem to be free to do—travel, enjoy themselves, pursue fulfilling projects, etc.—and in view of that amount of (like aimless says) habitual self-abnegation, which is after all a major contribution to the maintenance/propagation of the social good, people who opt out of having children probably strike other parents as kind of like cheats - not pulling throwing in their fair share in the system that the others thought everyone was required to sign up for. it's only natural that this would lead them to sanctify the sacrifice of the parent, the special knowledge about life from which the childless are excluded, the special privileges that accrue to the deserving self-sacrificers.

Yeah, I mean, my parents traveled all over the place and did a ton of awesome stuff after having me but they only had one child and a job where they only worked 7 out of 12 months so they had a lot of free time. I don't really think that having a kid did changed their life all that much in terms of those things ("travel, enjoy themselves, pursue fulfilling projects") and yet I still think he thinks that.

It's interesting that the tread has swung round to this topic. It's been on my mind quite a bit recently, and my feeling is that I can't imagine ever having children, basically because maintaining my own mental well-being is such a tricky ongoing task that I don't see myself being able to cope with providing for the entire well-being of another person as a priority above that. To some extent I worry that learning to 'cope with' my depression has come hand in hand with having to live quite a self-centred and limited kind of life.

i was struck by an anecdote, in andrew solomon's book maybe, about a woman who had been depressed for years, couldn't find any equilibrium, couldn't decisively improve things, and when she determined how much of it was connected to her romantic relationships, job aspirations, etc., she just started removing those things from her life, and found that the resulting life was much more manageable, even if more limited.

after having a kid, i had to remove myself from the rat race because of a combination of factors while my wife has worked the day jobs and traveled occasionally for business. and while i sometimes feel a bit of existential malaise at watching other people i know move up in their careers, it's mostly been invigorating to not feel that particular bit of pressure subconsciously. which i don't actually think is specific to having kids but more specific to the choice (at this moment) of not "living in competition", like brad delp said.

Don't you think that's a little selfish?

you owe it to yourself to live your best life and to others to treat them well

you don't owe humanity any offspring (or your parents any grandchildren). it's an extremely recent and rare development that you as a woman even have a choice about it; calling your decisions about your life selfish is pretty fucked up tbh

people who opt out of having children probably strike other parents as kind of like cheats - not pulling throwing in their fair share in the system that the others thought everyone was required to sign up for.

I've thought about this mindset for decades. Some former classmates and co-workers have been very put off by others' choosing to be child-free* to the point some seemed personally offended. One general position that baffled and frustrated me: But YOUR parents did so much for YOU! (But your parents change your shitty diapers, But everybody's parents put up with a lot to raise their families -- You don't have kids because they're FUN!) That kind of thinking fits with the "cheats" idea, like raising your own kids compensates one's parents for their sacrifices.

*trying to get "childless" out of my lexicon while also not feeling bad about "child-free"

One mid-40s woman I used to work with sometimes got pity or disdain or just inappropriate questions about her not having kids. Her response to those nosy people was perfect: "Oh...I can't have kids...." (this face and a healthy pause) "...because I hate them."

My experience with kids (they're now both teenagers) has been that, despite some of the misgivings I had about the idea of having them to begin with, once they came into the world their very existence -their personhood- rendered all considerations moot. Once they were born, they themselves, each in their own unique way, became an essential part of the universe. I don't know if I'd be happier or more accomplished without them, but now that they're here, I can't imagine them not existing.

That's not an argument for having kids. It's just a tribute to how very special a person is.

And that's a very personal, contingent experience I realize. I don't know what I would think if it turned out one of them became a serial killer or genocidal tyrant...

One general position that baffled and frustrated me: But YOUR parents did so much for YOU! (But your parents change your shitty diapers, But everybody's parents put up with a lot to raise their families -- You don't have kids because they're FUN!) That kind of thinking fits with the "cheats" idea, like raising your own kids compensates one's parents for their sacrifices.

It's as if choosing not to have kids implies that one is condemning one's own parents' performance of the parental role. My parents were my model for parenthood, so if I don't want to be a parent, I must be rejecting the model of parenthood that they represented for me. It's only by stepping into their shoes that I'm able to validate the job they did and thus compensate them in this ongoing intergenerational transaction.

Along similar lines, I wonder if people read a kind of suicide wish into the decision not to have kids: by rejecting parenthood you must wish you hadn't been parented yourself.

I prefer being alive to not existing, but I can't say I'm totally positive I'm glad to have been born in the first place. Parenting aside.

Being alive is really hard and weird and I would feel guilty imposing it on a being without their prior consent.

this isn't like a categorical imperative, it's just how I feel, I think it's totally fine to not feel that way

Along similar lines, I wonder if people read a kind of suicide wish into the decision not to have kids: by rejecting parenthood you must wish you hadn't been parented yourself.

with respect for you and your right to say whatever you want, this is a pretty messed up thing to post to a thread about depression, imo
people who have made this choice hardly need a compendium of the deeply inaccurate things people are thinking about them

Point taken. Sorry for that.

once you have one, ppl will just get on you to have more because only children are so creepy

there's just no pleasing some folks

I guess there's a difference between speculating on what people are thinking and pondering motivations behind inappropriate, judgmental questioning of people who choose not to have kids? I'm interested in what is behind the judgment, but its unexaminedness means you can't just ask the judgers. Certainly a big factor is sexism and seeing women as incubators, but some of those "but what about your parents" statements were toward me or other men.

It's as if choosing not to have kids implies that one is condemning one's own parents' performance of the parental role.

This is a pretty OTM

not one's parents, at worst, the human-species-in-one's-parents (if you wanna get all schopenhauerish/ev-psychy)

respectfully disagree
i was starting to think that i didn't feel esp freakish about not reproducing but now that i know people think i am a suicidal parent-rejecter all i can think is what the hell

Sorry again. It was a half-baked and unsupported thought, also needlessly dark.

i was starting to think that i didn't feel esp freakish about not reproducing but now that i know people think i am a suicidal parent-rejecter all i can think is what the hell

There's a domain name or two in there somewhere. (I won't tho.)

i forgot to add selfish

selfishantimommy.me

xps

It's as if choosing not to have kids implies that one is condemning one's own parents' performance of the parental role.

I think this is not quite the idea people are harboring when they say, "but, your parents did so much for you!" I would place it nearer to this: in childhood you received vast gifts from your parents that you accepted unconsciously, so the only karmic redress for this previous imbalance is to have your own kids and shower them with care, as in the pay-it-forward meme. Their disapproval is rooted in believing that you are willfully stopping the chain-letter-of-self-sacrifice's steady progress into the future, or to mix metaphors, you got to eat the cookies for free but are failing to bake the next batch and give them away.

There is a tiny kernel of truth in that idea. After all, raising children is the broad road to paying forward and you are not taking it. But making that choice is being improperly framed as a moral failing. There are myriad ways to pay kindness forward other than having children, and all of them are praiseworthy.

Aimless I hope you're saying that is a framework that some people believe, and not that you think it's in fact representative of reality or anything.

I am having trouble figuring out your question, io. I did say it is improper to frame the choice of not having children as a moral failing, if that helps.

sheesh what in there was not qualified appropriately enough for you io?!

waaaay more depressed now than i was a week ago when this convo started

blame the kids

the best retort to "why don't you have kids?" is "because i've been very careful"

my life feels like it's running on empty atm. feel like a deluded failure everyone avoids. that people caring about each other is a tenuous lie that takes way too much work to keep up. it's hard.

One mid-40s woman I used to work with sometimes got pity or disdain or just inappropriate questions about her not having kids. Her response to those nosy people was perfect: "Oh...I can't have kids...." (this face and a healthy pause) "...because I hate them."

mattresslessness, it probably takes a person more effort to avoid you deliberately than people are willing to put forth

This question of kids is stupid. The world doesn't need more people. If you want kids, it's because you've decided it would be fulfilling. Other people hae nothing to do with it.

If someone comments about it they are being invasive and inappropriate and should just be ignored. Who cares why they feel the way they do

damn right

While I can understand that those sorts of judgmental people exist, those judgments are really only linked to a certain kind of person or culture. Eg no one gives a shit that my husband and I aren't having kids, and everyone I am close to who have kids is almost disturbingly enthusiastic about my choice. Even my mother in law enthusiastically supports our choice, and my parents don't give a shit either way.

The only moral requirement I know of is to be kind to yourself and to others the best you can. Everything else is just footnotes.

I'm sorry to hear you are feeling so low, mattresslessness. It sounds to me like you need to direct some kindness toward yourself rn. To begin, failing is normal. It does not make you "a failure" because that is a static description and you are not a static entity.

i was starting to think that i didn't feel esp freakish about not reproducing but now that i know people think i am a suicidal parent-rejecter all i can think is what the hell

Not "people," but SOME people will think you (or I or anybody) are a freak based on virtually anything we do or don't do. Most people don't give a shit. People you care about and who care about you think you're pretty great.

I don't even remember how any of this was related to depression. Sorry for what became for me a tangent.

I'm sorry, LL.
Some of my best & favoritest friends right now are some ppl in their 70s and 80s who have never had kids, and they are just fucking rad and have the best & most varied life stories. They are happy people and I want to be just like them. And once at that point (old) it seems like no one is giving them shit for not having kids.
And they never ask me about having kids!! We just talk about how they love to play the oboe or whatever.

matt, that feeling sucks shit :(
nb it is in all likelihood untrue

IT IS NOT TRUE

the feeling is still real and horrible and hard to wrassle

i don't even know if actual caring about other people is a self-deluding freak of genes and self-deception but i'm going to try to live like it's not and matt you're an A1 human being in as much as i'm qualified to award marks, fuck isolation and those inner voices that lie lie lie

x x x

Im doing something challenging, empowering and lifechanging.

Or at least it might be if I could do it. Spending 90% of every day in complete frustration is difficult, but the minute I let go of this rope my reserves of energy and hope will have been used up, and one day that day will come