Depression and what it's really like

Hmm think 'fate' could translate as either 'for a reason' or 'for no reason'?

could go either way IMO. fate is sort of agnostic, you, god or no one could be responsible for fate

To get all scholastic about it, everything happens with a cause, but unless you are a predestinarian who believes in a rational and all powerful god, then the only things we know of that happen for a reason are events that are motivated by a rational choice made by one or more humans. Even then, poor reasons so abound that imo "happens for a reason" is almost as value-neutral as "happens for a cause".

when people say "it's happens for a reason" they are not being value-neutral though, 99% of the time they clearly mean "well, it's for the greater good" or "God works in mysterious ways" bullshit

Scholasticism never really worked its way into the popular imagination.

want to backtrack a bit: i agree that the "it happens for a reason bullshit" is bullshit, but i do think being able to think that way helps the people who are able to do it. the problem is that actually believing this is morally repugnant because it means you implicitly excuse all sorts of atrocities as part of some larger plan which... ugh. but most just don't deal with these complications.

i actually think at some minimal level, most people secretly believe in something like fate. that is, they'll look over their life and synthesize all they've endured into a narrative, and the endpoint -- themselves currently -- then takes on an aura of inevitability, even if that isn't explicitly claimed. the exception to this might be depressed people, who tend to have regrets. to have regrets is to recognize, retrospectively, your freedom, which as kierkegaard tells us is actually not a very pleasant thing to live with

Everyone is right talking about Chris Rock's latest perceptive comments on race, but no one is mentioning his interesting take on Robin Williams:

I know that it’s Miller who first introduced you to Robin Williams. What did you make of his tragic end?

Comedians kill themselves. Talk to 100 comedians this week, everybody knows somebody who killed themselves. I mean, we always say ignorance is bliss. Well, if so, what’s the opposite? Some form of misery. Being a comedian, 80 percent of the job is just you notice shit, which is a trait of schizophrenics too. You notice things people don’t notice.

And it either makes you crazy or it doesn’t. How do you defend against it yourself?

You try to give yourself other things to focus on. I always say, my children saved me from my miserable self.

children are the worst
congrats on your selfish act of bringing tots into this world, your kids will die horribly when everything goes Waterworld
(i kid)

part of why i am afraid of being a parent is like 'what if i'm a fucked up mom who fucks my kids up with depression'

^^^ amongst other things

yep

yes. also not kidding what nhex said. but more just they will be fucked up and hate me. but "you notice things people don't notice" is like, the definition of being depressed, unfortunately? imo.

I dunno, what if you're a mom with no arms and can't hug your kids?

you can hug with your legs i guess, kind of weird

chris ware and chris rock agree:

Anyway, you yourself have become a father and it seems to me that it has affected your approach to your art.

CW: Yeah, it kind of fixed every mental problem that I had within an hour. So I highly recommend it if anybody out there is thinking of having children, you should really, I mean, it’s the only reason we’re here, and if you have any doubts in your mind about yourself or where your life is going, it’ll be answered easily and almost instantaneously. It’s a cliché to say, but it also immediately sets you aside from yourself and you’re no longer the star of your own mind, which is really not a very good state of mind to be in.

from comics journal interview:
http://classic.tcj.com/alternative/interview-with-chris-ware-part-2-of-2/2/

I think he's exaggerating, because just a little further down:

Recently, when I told my daughter that I was going to go up and work on one of my strips, she actually said: “Are you just gonna go upstairs and blame yourself?” [Audience laughs.]

Good 'Ol Chris Ware

yeah, that's potentially great for the parents, but imo facepalmingly suspect when it comes to the kids

i have never been super into having kids anyway, but in the past year i've been really struck by how little my parents have been able to have a positive influence on my now years of depression. at the moment they can't even really help financially, which has been quite bad, but apart from that, they raised me well, provided for me, loved me, i grew into a talented and high-achieving person (if you neglect the whole academic job market nightmare part of my life), and also i think like a ~good~ person, not in the socially-beneficial sense probably, but one with depths, things to offer others, etc., - and yet, i'm just unhappy, have been unhappy, so deeply so that it seems permanent. and some people don't ever get out of that shit. some people end up finding their whole lives were disappointments, something they could never really turn around, enjoy.

and that's what you're rolling the dice on when you have kids. of course you will love them (well not of COURSE, some parents fuck that up, or just can't), take care of them, give them the best you can. but they will be different people. they'll have their own lives, not yours. and there will be some point at which their happiness or unhappiness is only, at best, up to them (maybe not even that).

it's possible to wax philosophical (moralizingly/theologically so i think) and talk about the grand human adventure of trying to be your own person, live your own life, etc., what a great gift that is, etc., but the fact remains, some people's lives just don't work out for them, and if that's so with your kids, it will have been largely because of you and whatever narcissistic personal growth project you had in spawning that they will have been stuck with those lives.

you can hug with your legs i guess, kind of weird

― flatizza (harbl), Wednesday, December 3, 2014 2:48 AM (22 minutes ago)

"you can't hug your children with nuclear legs"

"You can't put too much water in a nuclear reactor."

xps but if depression and other mental illnesses are genetic diseases, there is the worry of passing that on and having to watch your children suffer. and i guess if having kids fixes all your mental problems, then it was probs just your personality and not actually an illness, in the first place.

part of having kids, in any circumstances, is learning to accept that they will sometimes suffer

a big reason I don't want to have kids is I am not okay with passing on what seems to be a depressive disorder with a strong genetic component.

same, although not the only reason. My sister has 3 and I know she worried about it, she got the brunt of our mum's depression growing up so she knows first hand how bad it can be

I casually know chris and his daughter. It's amazing how many new yorker covers have been of or by her school, or their closest park and the like, and he and she are usually in there somewhere.

I don't know if I'm clinically depressed, but I'm definitely prone toward that disposition. Having kids I would say actually has been helpful, because in some ways they give me hope for the future, despite all the hopelessness and horror out there. They have potential, and I have the potential to positively shape them. But then there are days when they are total assholes, and it's just soul-defeating to have these awesome creatures make you lose your temper, or yell, or send to their room or whatever, because then you think, this is the best thing I have going for me and they're terrible! But then it gets better, because kids act that way, and always revert back to normal like nothing happened. At least until they are teenagers, the prospect of which promises another depressing turn toward horror.

There are definitely days I think what I'm confusing for depression is actually exhaustion, because kids are hard and make you tired, and being tired messes you up.

re kids and mental health - part of the reason I'm in very intensive therapy (was 2x weekly with psych and now it's one time weekly with her and 1x weekly with a nutritionist/body image specialist) is because I wanted to tackle a lot of my own stuff before ever having kids. I would like very much to be a mother one day but I know there's a lot I have to work on first before I feel able to do that. I wish I'd realized this earlier because now this delay will put me further into a somewhat iffy age bracket in terms of conceiving but I'm also ok with the idea of fostering and or adoption if natural motherhood doesn't happen for me. I've been doing this for almost a year now and it's been INTENSE. It's exhausting and hard and I feel exposed and raw about 80% of the time but I have to believe it's going to be worth it at some point for myself but also for any children I may end up caring for.

Growing up with a clinically depressed mother with narcissistic personality disorder and a drinking problem p much clued me into just how much a parent's issues can fuck a kid up so I'm trying to get to a place where I can be comfortable with myself and my progress to think that I won't wind up like her.

"the fact remains, some people's lives just don't work out for them, and if that's so with your kids, it will have been largely because of you and whatever narcissistic personal growth project you had in spawning that they will have been stuck with those lives."

this seems pretty narcissistic in itself! while parents are (typically) the biggest influences in a kid's life, they spend a lot of time, maybe even more time, with other people, from pretty early on. it may be that you'll end up responsable for those other people being shitty (because of where you live, for instance). but that's only on you in a second-order way.

not really feeling that, direct parental influence and upbringing seems paramount to me

My mother has suffered with low-grade depression for years, but would probably deny it. Her own mother was violently mentally ill and was sent away as a result, so she's probably comparing her mum's mental health with her own and coming up with 'actually, I'm within the realms of normality'. Not for one second did she baulk at having her own kids, but because her mother wasn't in a position to pass down mum knowledge, she had other problems with Where The Boundaries Go and, perhaps, owning up to her own shortcomings as a parent.

i'm not talking about passing-on-depression, or influencing-via-one's-depression.

i'm just talking about the fact of causing the kid to exist in the first place. thereby sticking them with the hassle that is being happy or not, outside the range of what you can possibly help with as the parent.

this whole convo is really bumming me out tbrr

I think about that a lot, how weird it is that we have this power to bring people into existence and that, obvious cases aside, we assume we have an authority to do so. Even if the person one's bringing to existence has a good chance at a happy life, I find it a weird thing, as if we know best whether someone ought to be stuck with the mind-boggling complexities that come with a human life.

inherently selfish act that we justify, thanks biology

Xps what did you expect from a thread called "depression and what it's really like"??

Lol I know, I just feel low whenever ppl say that kids cured them of their depression.

I will say that being responsible for someone else's well-being does give some sort of primal urge to actually get up in the morning. I definitely wouldn't say it cures depression though.

No way it cures depression, which isn't so simply "cured," but it does distract you from broader global/internal issues to focus on minor, more or less solvable problems. What's for dinner, where are your mittens, let's go to school, want to see a movie, stop poking your sister ...

The Chris Rock (and maybe Chris Ware) quotes probably speak to the sensitivity of all artists or creative sorts, closely attuned to the world around them for inspiration but not always for the best. I have a couple of friends who I've never seen down, never seen brooding, always seem to be a beacon of positivity. I've never asked them if that is hard, or if it takes a lot of work, or if it just comes naturally. I have to work hard to stay out of funks, but by and large I am successful. At least until someone points out I am not being successful.

pplains 100% otm

it is hard for me to think about existential questions about having kids, because for me the decision to have kids was like the decision to eat in the morning: just the most natural thing in the world, not one for which I can say I reflected much; nor do I, on reflection, think I should have done otherwise. & one can also judge my eating in the morning to be a selfish decision. but that is not my frame for thinking about either of those matters. I'm not the mental healthiest person by any stretch but this particular concern escapes me.

Having children didn't cure my depression, but it definitely increases my baseline happiness and motivates me to take good care of my mental health.

But seriously advising people to have children to cure their depression is gross, and it also completely erases the very real problem of women developing post-partum depression.

Like, telling a woman who suffers from depression to have a kid to cure it is just... no.

http://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/stories/2013/03/surprising-rate-of-women-have-depression-after-childbirth.html

is it still pretty common for women to get advice that having a kid will solve their life problems?

i just deleted a big long winded post but basically, i am aware of all of this and wish it didn't make me feel like my value as a person in society weren't dramatically reduced as a woman who has chosen not to be a mother, but unfortch this seems to be true generally speaking
and i do not need to be consoled about this, as i enjoy my life for the most part
i just want my life to have value as a productive member of society (which i believe it does)
this is why it brings me down, apologies for not explaining this earlier

is it still pretty common for women to get advice that having a kid will solve their life problems?

― Nhex, Wednesday, December 3, 2014 5:13 PM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yes.

obviously

That makes me sad that you feel that it lessens your value in society! :( I would never think that but I realize that might not the normal mindset, sadly. I don't understand what the connection is between your post and the topic or maybe that's the reason you've chosen not to and I missed that somewhere.

is it still pretty common for women to get advice that having a kid will solve their life problems?

― Nhex, Wednesday, December 3, 2014 5:13 PM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yes.

― carl agatha, Wednesday, December 3, 2014 12:22 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Thankfully I've never gotten this advice. In fact, anyone I've ever spoken to about having kids has been pretty straight up in admitting that children put a strain on most aspects of life and make things way more difficult.

after a brief mental survey, i can say that most people i know who have said "having kids gave me a reason to wake up in the morning" are men with the exception of one. all of the people who say "it's like having a cake in the oven literally all the time" are women. i don't have to go through it to see that the experience is vastly different for girls, and i am a woman.

i don't feel that it lessens my value in society, i believe that there are a lot of people who believe that based on the number of times i have been consoled about how it's ok to not have kids. it's just one of those topics, like being an only child.

I guess maybe I've never experienced that because I've never said to anyone that I don't want or am not ever having kids but having been the recipient of the only child bs I can see how awful that must be.