Serial - the podcast *spoilers*

seems like basically a story about how the police pushed a guy to testify to a false sequence of events but nonetheless got the right person convicted

the thing is, i just don't feel like either jay or adnan have any kind of motive for Hae's murder, unless one of them is a psychopath.

the phone booth thing is really fuckin weird - like, if it never existed, jay took an awfully big gamble by stating adnan called him from it, how could he possibly know it wouldn't be checked out? is it possible that adnan had a second phone that he called jay from, and that bc jay didn't know about it he just assumed adnan must have called him from a phone booth, since adnan specified he was right there?

this has a much more salient critique of Serial than I've seen elsewhere

http://gawker.com/what-serial-gets-wrong-1660778617?utm_campaign=socialflow_gawker_twitter&utm_source=gawker_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow

ehh the whole thing about how SK isn't questioning the police's questionable actions doesn't seem right - imo she's questioned it quite a bit. i also think it's possible that she's going to get around to the cultural/political climate of baltimore, and how that impacted the case, in a later episode.

There are now two competing podcasts that recap Serial now? Is this the first time podcasts about podcasts have sprung up? I know there is a This American Life parody podcast, but can't think of any others.

a guy i work with was named in the credits this last episode i need to get his autograph

Have listened to these over and over the last few days. Jay mostly told what the cops got him to say in the pre-interviews, right?

They probay got him to say that Adnan was planning the murder, so they could make 1st degree stick

There are now two competing podcasts that recap Serial now? Is this the first time podcasts about podcasts have sprung up?

The Wolf Den.

found listening to this quite strange. couldn't concentrate on it while working or reading twitter. found it a bit creepy having to turn everything off so i could sit and truly focus on the real story of this murder.

anyway, adnam did it

It seems obvious to me that Jay's account of a premeditated murder is false. And why would the state be so interested in a murder one conviction? I wonder if the stuff about Adnand's threats toward Jay is true and it's Jay who wants to pin the murder one so that Adnand's gone for life. Maybe he made his cooperation as a witness contingent on this point.

The state always wants to be able to charge high (murder one) so that they can get a plea deal on something lower (murder two). Having Jay ready to say that Adnan was planning the murder would be an incentive for Adnan to confess to a crime of passion.

It's always adnam

Got through all 9 and still kind of frustrated by this show -- I rme a little when the PI she hired told her to stop focusing on all the "Adnan's friend thought he seemed ___ that day" stuff because it's total bs, because I have been feeling that way all along. Meanwhile, nine episodes in, very little examination of why Jay might be lying if he is, or what alternate explanations of the crime there might be if Adnan wasn't involved. Hard to tell how much of that is just the podcast deliberately stringing the listener along in order to create a good serialized story and how much of it is being unsure what leads to follow. But it does bother me that she has no background in crime reporting or investigation and it shows. It's one thing to examine the slippery nature of truth, it's another to fumble around in the dark when a better trained person might get to the bottom more quickly.

the thing is, i just don't feel like either jay or adnan have any kind of motive for Hae's murder, unless one of them is a psychopath.

The motive for Adnan would be jealousy. The evidence against that is just a bunch of people saying he didn't *seem* like he was broken up about it. But there's also been evidence that the relationship was much more intense than his cool, casual vibe would have let on. I agree it's a little hard to believe. So far the show has left me with nothing else, so it still seems like the most likely explanation. I don't really get why the show still hasn't looked more closely at Don, or at other people who might be links between Jay and Hae, or at any other possibilities (though Jay has to get tied in somehow in order to have a reason to make up all this shit about Adnan).

one theory i saw on reddit was that hae had caught jay cheating and was going to tell steph. i actually find that somewhat more believable than adnan killing her, esp bc jay says it was premeditated and not a fit of rage.

why the show still hasn't looked more closely at Don

there's an interview - entertainment weekly, maybe? - in which one of the producers waves this aside just by saying don's alibi's watertight, that he was at work, fwiw. i forget if it came up in the show.

sk mentions that a manager at lenscrafters confirmed don was working that day.

reddit kickstarter to torture the branch manager into full disclosure

one theory i saw on reddit was that hae had caught jay cheating and was going to tell steph.

isn't this the dumb theory Adnan's lawyer was trying to use when she's yelling at Jay about "stepping out"?

Has she looked into whether Don has an identical twin? I'm clutching at straws here.

There are some details in these accounts that SK has nt really explored--probably because she isn't in the proving-Adnan-is-guilty business.

First, the person who made the 911 call said that Hae broke up with her boyfriend about a week before she went missing. We know that she broke up withAdnan way before that--so either the caller meant Don, or Hae had still been secretly seeing Adnan and finally broke it off for good.

Also one of the stories from the Jay episode was that Adnan confronted Hae about flirting with some guy and then strangled her in anger. Presumably the guy was not Don. Perhaps had told Adnan she was about to dump Don and Adnan thought she might be coming back to him, only to freak out when he heard she was flirting with new guys?

All of these also give Don a motive

First, the person who made the 911 call said that Hae broke up with her boyfriend about a week before she went missing. We know that she broke up withAdnan way before that--so either the caller meant Don, or Hae had still been secretly seeing Adnan and finally broke it off for good.

or the caller is not an infallible source

Well it was the pope tbf

Adnan did it in a fugue state.

Jay and Adnan were really just working for a ring of Maryland politicians, ministers and other luminaries who wore animal masks and engaged in ritual murder in cars in the Best Buy parking lot.

I really agree with Hurting's point from upthread - there's tons of weeds to get lost in with this story but the big over-riding question now is why the fuck should we believe Jay would make up a big elaborate story to frame Adnan? A story that makes him an accessory to a murder. And if the answer is he lied because killed Hae, why the fuck would Jay kill Hae?

I don't think I could convict Adnan if I were on a jury and the podcast through ep 9 was the sum of the case, but I also still feel like Adnan did it is the most likely explanation, with inconsistencies in Jay's story probably coming down to him minimizing his own role/flaws in his memory. Everyone in this story seems to smoke weed all the time, so that would explain a lot too.

yeah, it does not seem like a leap at all to accept that Adnan probably should not have been convicted based on what we know of the case against him... and to believe he seems like he had the most likely motive, the opportunity to commit the crime, and a semi-reliable witness saying he did it. Not enough to put someone away for life, but not nothing.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/24/business/media/serial-podcastings-first-breakout-hit-sets-stage-for-more.html?rref=collection%2Fcolumn%2Fthe-media-equation&contentCollection=business&action=click&module=NextInCollection®ion=Footer&pgtype=article

I don't really get the guilty-but-shouldn't-have-been-convicted- argument. Lack of every single nail being hammered down in a case doesn't really add up to reasonable doubt. It would overturn nearly every conviction that went to a jury, as there are always details that don't fit. If I were on a jury and I thought a guy had murdered someone, I don't think "Some stoner chick doesn't remember seeing a pay phone when she was shoplifting from Best Buy 15 years ago," would cause me to vote not guilty.

Someone on Reddit (yes i know) presented this (completely fictional) scenario, which helped me be able to accept the proposed "infidelity" motivation for Jay, or the way the situation could have escalated very fast:

Hae approaches Adnan's car, realizes Jay is driving.

HAE: If you don't tell Stephanie that you cheated, I will.

JAY: If you do, I'll tell your parents you've been lying to them for years and having sex.

HAE: Then I'll just go to the police and tell them you're a dealer.

Would only be believable to me if Hae was good friends with Stephanie, which I don't remember being the case but maybe I'm forgetting something. Also is there any reason to think Jay was cheating on Stephanie?

There was no evidence in this case. There was one witness, and his story was only corroborated by the phone records if you overlook all the places where it doesn't. I don't think this is a case where there is just stuff that does not add up, this is a weak case. Also, don't think Adnan did it.

Well, maybe not *only* believable if they were friends, but again, no evidence for that theory yet afaik.

It's legitimately absurd to say that there was "no evidence" in this case.

What was it, then? Phone records. A fingerprint on a book Adnan could have seen many times before.

The testimony of Jay is extremely strong evidence even if not everything matches. Saying it's "only one witness" like it was just some random eyewitness who saw a flash of Adnan's face in a car is really missing the point. Again, maybe not enough to convict, but you need a pretty good story to explain it away.

The difference between Serial and some of the documentaries that have led to exonerations is that the others have posited a plausible alternative suspect as well as poking holes in the state's case. How horrible for Hae's family if Serial actually got her murderer sprung on technical issues. Not that that will happen.

but it might, idk, i think in that entertainment weekly interview w/ Koenig she again mentions the innocence proj and that it will factor in again in this narrative

I don't consider one witness to be enough evidence, especially not one who took a plea deal. Like, that's just a princip. I would never ever vote to convict in a case that hinged on a single witness who got out of prison himself by testifying. And that short segment where they interview a juror saying 'he had to go to prison himself' 'no he didn't' 'huh...' That was one of the most horifying details yet.

Also, I think 15 years is long enough in prison for anything, especially for an underage convict. But then again, I'm European.

15 years is also a long time to be dead at someone's hands. (I'm American btw)

I think Adnan probably did it, but if I were on a jury and was presented with the evidence described in this podcast, there is no way I would feel confident enough about Adnan's guilt to actually vote for a guilty verdict.

from what I've heard about the Innocent Project's work on this case (SPOILERS): They're mainly focusing on DNA tests of the rape kit--running it against a serial killer who was active at the time, and another guy. If either of those suspects turn up as hits then maybe Adnan will get another trial. If not, I don't know how his case gets relitigated.

Lots of criminal convictions necessarily hinge on the testimony of one witness. Again, big difference between "one witness" who sees something from the sidelines and "one witness" who knows the perpetrator and has a long, detailed account.

The plea deal taint is a problem, but again, there are limited possibilities: either (1) Jay played exactly the role he said and got himself exonerated for giving up Adnan, (2) Jay was more of a co-conspirator with Adnan and massaged things to make it sound like it was only Adnan, or (3) Jay is covering up for himself and/or someone else by creating a very elaborate fabrication that happens to match up with a lot of details in spite of other inconsistencies. It requires Jay alone and/or with some unknown third person murdering someone Jay doesn't have much connection to while just happening to also have Adnan's car and phone. And I would assume that police investigated Jay as well, although the show hasn't really gone into this from what I remember. And I doubt the police were like "oh, we have this other dude who might have killed her, and he even has a rap sheet and is a pot dealer, but who cares lets just get the popular kid based on a story that might be made up and not even look into the other guy."

Like I said, I don't know if I could convict, but if it's just a matter of weighing more and less likely explanations so far, I still think Adnan is the more likely person.

XP that would require Jay framing his friend to save a serial killer (or hallucinating the story or something)

I think there's a 4th possibility that's far more likely: Jay did help Adnan hide the body, and initially lied about it to the cops. They kept pressing him so that he had to admit certain things, and after the story started to come out, they continued to get him to add thingsthat fit their preferred timeline and theories.

If Jay had been forced into helping a serial killer getting rid of the body, why on earth would it be more weird that he also felt forced into concocting a lie to further help a serial killer? Like, I don't get that.

And there was a witness giving Adnan an alibi. But we all just ignore that. When really, the whole corroboration of Jays story also hinges on a single witness, Nysha.

If Jay had been forced into helping a serial killer getting rid of the body, why on earth would it be more weird that he also felt forced into concocting a lie to further help a serial killer? Like, I don't get that.

lol

And Nysha's story is factually incorrect. Mentions a job that Jay didn't have at the time. And the prosecution ignores that. Like, it's the smoking gun, and it isn't true.