Old School - Nethack

for sure, they are 60-80 hour games where you can get sucked into replaying through compulsively, designed so you can't do and see everything in one play. certainly i played the first couple over and over. the most fun is at the extremes too, the first time when you don't have a clue what's around the next corner and then when you have every inch to memory and you're trying to go thru perfectly or break it early. there is definitely an overlap in mentality with those games and the hardcore rogues. altho ADOM did make me want to jump out of a window eventually, so thanks for that.

Owen, thanks so much for your reply! Please do not hold it against me that my heart skipped a beat out of glee learning you are still playing this, after having read your previous experiences. Was afraid you'd became wise and left this behind you ;-)

I'm in "that place" rn, but because of what you said, will try either Brogue or ADOM this time around. Will dive in head first at Brogue though, no seed number business first, just to get acquainted.

Oh and I played Moria! On al old unix system in the same office, after the systems had switched from xenix to unix. Think that's why it later became Umoria actually, the U added because of unix!

I honestly find these updates fascinating and live vicariously through then since my history with nethack is just a series of brief and terribly obsessive failures, keep em coming

qft

I am apparently a year younger than you, Amory and fgti, and the earliest childhood games I recall seeming to be infinitely vast worlds to explore forever were 8-bit platformer Jet Set Willy and roguelike Caverns of Larn

(actually a p. short game to blast through as these things go, at least on the easier settings - the bosses are a gamble but there's not much buffing up to do in preparation: get the one good weapon and hope to find one of about 3 decent spells, but really just go and meet them and either you die or you don't, as far as I've yet worked out - but the way I played as a kid I somehow made each char last for days; the one time as a kid I reached the potion to save my daughter I had long outlived her. I really don't know how I spun it out so long, there are only 13 levels and once you mop up nothing particularly interesting respawns)

I used to be totally anti-tilesets, but I got into DCSS with tilesets this year for the first time after several previous phases of playing the ASCII version. It was kind of like a whole new game and yet also familiar. ascii is the only way for trv kvlt rogvelikeheads of course. also a little part of me dies inside every time I see a game described as roguelike which is, like, not ASCII, and not top-down, and not permadeathy, and not solo-dungeon-crawly, and etc

I KNOW

I played Spelunky and was like "not a rl" and FTL and was like "NOT A RL". Love both of them tho

this is such a good thread

i only ever played the game intensively for one term as an undergraduate, and i played with the tileset, so obv i should be tarred and feathered, but anyway, i was listening to the first marnie stern album a bunch at the time and would be entering keypresses a lot of the time in sync with her sixteenth-note power-tapping stuff and now whenever i listen to that record i can't associate it with anything but nethack, it was a good and worthwhile thing to do, i was not that good, i only ever got to the hell levels was the best i managed

The amount of time-investment I've thrown into Moria, ADOM and Brogue has made me extremely, extremely hesitant to fully embrace any other permadeath style games. I played DCSS a bit a bit, and TOME, but never felt the magic in either. I could tell that I wouldn't really feel that same magic in Demon's Souls

This might be getting personal but there is something super-appealing to my play-style about single-author games. The clarity of tone is really necessary. Sometimes with Nethack variants, and the Angband games, and def DCSS, I felt that there was too much tinkering for me to feel transported. Too much democracy or something.

Part of the joy of single-player gaming is that it feels like a proxy for prayer, and games with permadeath make it a fully ascetic pursuit. Feeling that same sense of isolation in the game itself, that it was made by a small group, it can feel really magical. I felt that way as a kid about the Ultima games, and Ico. These days I've been feeling it most with Interactive Fiction, playing through all the main contenders for the Xyzzy Awards has been a good pastime for when I'm laid up

the master system port of ultima iv was a big touchstone for me as a kid

well, not a touchstone, so much; something i spent all my time on for a period of several months and then left off abruptly. in memory the master system version was oddly beautiful and i was really disappointed when i emulated it, though i think actually it was at that level of technology that gained massively from the fuzziness of cathode ray tvs

i had gotten that there was the overall quest, and worked out that one had to gather mantras, meditate, but was lacking the resources somehow to make actual progress in this quest, or merely did not want to, and so played it as one would a JRPG, wandering around, levelling up

my mother bought it for me very reduced in a branch of debenhams or BHS (largely defunct brit department store chains) and it turned out the feelies were all in french; i remember bugging her to translate one day while she was doing the ironing and her being not so much stumped by the limitations of her french as just baffled by the mode and idiom in which the spell book and the lore book were written. this added to the feeling of something meaningfully or genuinely cultish or other about it -- that it came from a place whose rules others might not understand. plus of course it boots with the sequence where you're in the real world and go to the fortune teller and all that

so in ultima iv if you just wander around and level up around level 8 or so the wandering enemy difficulty curve (which is sorta exponential) intersects again with the strength of your party (which is more or less linear) and suddenly the world is hostile to you. the previously relaxing experience of wandering around britannia became suddenly stressful, as whenever one walked through a forest there could be balrogs or demons hanging around just outside of vision, and the party suddenly seemed hunted or persecuted, like their failure to accomplish anything meaningful was being judged by authorities other. this feeling was made much worse when one of the contacts was damaged, or the memory corrupted, on my copy of the cartridge, and so every screen started to load with hazard tiles from the dungeons scattered around, or garbage tiles one couldn't move in, which now i assume is from looking at the wrong address for the tile data. i sort of half-understood this at the time but it still seemed ontologically fraught to me: either this world was disintegrating or my interface with it was, after all. i stopped playing after that.

http://www.pixsoriginadventures.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/20130606_171141.jpg

Aw, love the story of your mum translating for you.

Beautiful post thomp

Yes, that's beautiful Thomp <3

When I started nethack when 7 I didn't know what most names of the monsters meant, because they were in English. But the name combined with the symbol (H = hobgoblin, which I didn't read right and pronounced hoboglin until I was 16 or so, same with nearly all the others) surprisingly stick with you and your imagination just creates an image of it. Based on the shape of the letter (the H having quite a 'tough', moloch-like don't-mess-with-me shape in my eyes) it'd become a real, live creature for me. I doubt I would, or could play nethack in ascii if I hadn't already done so at an early age, but feel blessed because of it.

Anyway, so yeah, started this again today... Feeling both v excited and sad because of it. There's this overwhelming feeling of giving into the temptation, as if by entering the dungeon you kind of give up on everything else in life, put the rest on hold? Don't mean to sound pathetic - while I do - but I feel like Bam from Beckett's What Where. Life comes a knocking and it's too much or too little to speak of, I've nothing to show for myself rn and that is both comforting and scary. I am in the dungeon like the secret of What Where, passed onto Bom, Bim and Bem but without the what and the where, and the what, ever coming to light. Passed around slaying creatures.

Started as a Valkyrie, and spent a good two hours puzzling my way through Sobokan just for a sodding holding bag. Was fortunate to receive my Thor hammer after just two sacrifices on the altar in the Gnomish mines, because that can take absolute ages. I forgot what good artifacts are in store going down the mines all the way? Don't really want to look up spoilers but if one of youse can fill me in that'd be nice :)

Will update this irregularly if people are interested.

If I recall the only really nice thing at the bottom of the mines is a luckstone? But I've always avoided spoilers on Nethack, so maybe there's all sorts of stuff I never knew about.

Stuck in a mine not being able to find the staircase, sigh. Fuck it. Going back up. Luck stones are overrated imho.

Sometimes you have to make your own luckstone.

(I don't know if this is possible)

Heh I don't think it's possible in the game Zach but 100% otm :)

also, i sympathize with your thoughts on the attraction of games like this when your irl is on a downswing. it's a comforting and sinking feeling. i too have been in a weird headspace lately, injecting myself with beckett doses every week or so and seeking to lose myself in something new for a while (in my case it's watching battlestar galactica for the first time). if i was better at nethack i'd probably be doing that instead!

anyway, hugs, support, <3 <3

Thanks man, know you understand and I really appreciate that <3

It is comforting and sinking, and while that feels bad as a wasted day can make you feel bad for not having done anything, there's still something worthy in there. Something of value. Something of note. In a way I think you would be an excellent nethacker, seeing your gifs and the imagination you intrinsically need to pull off those amazing pieces of work. But I can also see why you went 'nethack lol waht'. And am not too sure I'd wish diving deep into nethack for any people I have an affection for? You've got your click disaster game anyway, that should suffice ;)

thanks guys

man I am so not tempted to play nethack again, it's weird. even though I feel like my life is in a place it would make sense.

http://i.imgur.com/3giwLqE.png

Started a new game today and I just killed Lord Surtur. Done all of the Gnomish Mines and Sokoban. Now it's down through Gehennom to kill Vlad the Impaler. My stats are less than impressive though - I think - with an AC of only -12. I have the Grayswandir sword to slash my way through the ghouls and undead, but looking at my stats, is that enough? Can I make it with these numbers? I've got the basics (dragon scale mail, power gauntlets, speed boots, magic resistance cloak, telepathy helmet), how do I bring down my AC? Get a +10000 hawaian shirt?

Also I forgot to pick up seven candles needed for the Candelabrum of Invocation #fml. Will I find candles in Gehennom or should I go down to the Gnomish mines to pick them up first?

Won't be able to resume play before xmas, so any input or advice would be most welcome!

essentially this is a game about eating monsters

(yes i am playing this again)

I'm always coming back to this.

Eating monsters otm. Been playing this for more than 20 years now, and only recently learned eating a nurse (!) will get your health back up to max :)

What are you playing as?

valk but just bc i wanted something i was familiar w/ to ease back in - i'm thinking about going wiz soon. what's a good race for that?

I've rarely played as a wizard myself (for some reason I'm just not a 'spell'-player). Gnome looks like your best bet. Human makes for a hard time in the mines (as both dwarves and gnomes will come after you), Elf is intelligent but v weak, Orc pretty much the other way around.

i've got a decent run going but i've only found like 3 total identify spells - and blessed none of them did a full inventory. also found 3 throne rooms but none of them identified either. so i've identified all my rings but i have a huge stack of potions, scrolls and wands that are totally unidentified. i found amnesia scroll early on so i'm thinking i should just brute test them all but i hate wasting potentially useful stuff (like potions of gain ability) that could be blessed.

also got 2 magic lamp. blessed the first and rubbed it and got the genie pet :( and now i don't want to waste the other one bc i wanted to use it for unlimited lighting in gehennim.

found a 3rd magic lamp during the quest so i blessed + rubbed the second one and wished up some grey dragon mail - enchanted that, found the shield of reflection on perseus's statue and enchanted that up. i'm at -15 AC and down to the castle. few things i want if i can survive the castle and get to the wand like gauntlets of ogre power and cloak of magical resistance. an uncursed magic marker and i can generate a bunch of enchant armor and i think get well above 20. didn't find a t-shirt either so i might wish one of those up. i don't remember - if you get to the wand and immediately wish for 2 blessed scrolls of charging how many wishes do you get out of that? oh, some scrolls of genocide would be nice too bc fuck liches, mind flayers + disenchanters. anyway, closed it for the night bc i'm getting tired + distracted and that's no way to go into a castle that apparently has numerous liches, disenchanters, dragons and one mind flayer in it.

The pet sucks :(

Iirc you can only recharge your wand of wishing once, after that it will explode. Found this in a wiki: "Your first wish from this wand should be a source of charging, if you do not already have one. This typically involves wishing for 2 or 3 blessed scrolls of charging. If you have already identified charging scrolls, you should wish for a magic marker and write your own. Wizards with high Luck have a good chance of writing unknown scrolls, and should generally wish for a magic marker instead."

How did you bless your magic lamp? I've a cursed magic lamp atm (yes, started playing again, your fault) and can't remember a way to have it blessed. Not encountered holy water, nor have I found an altar of my alignment, which sucks.

Also, when do you go down Sobhokan, the puzzle/labyrinth levels? Do you do it on first encounter? It's got some nice artefacts but it's boring as hell to play.

i've gotten pretty good and quick at it and the bag of holding is essential (and the amulet of reflection isn't too bad either) and sometimes you find some good rings +wands. when playing valk i go in order: a. hit lvl 5 to get excalibur, b. go to minetown, c. go down to sokoban and do that, d. go to mines' end

i think only way to bless the magic lamp is holy water. which means u need an altar of yr alignment. which means either finding one or converting one. don't convert one that has a priest or they will blast you.

ha! thought my so far v successful game was fucked when this formerly peaceful giant summoned a master mind flayer and a minotaur (among others) which quickly dropped me down to... well... take a look for yourself

http://i.imgur.com/VMjLRva.png

i thought for sure i was dead. but i am alive. what did i do? quaffed two potions of extra healing and then broke the wand of teleportation i was holding! whoop whoop!

<uncomfortable silence as everyone realises Mordy's playing a graphical version>

tbf i'm playing 2 games at once -- nethackcocoa (which has the tileset) and alt.org which doesn't

nb shortly after this screenshot i blew up my bag of holding (i want to blame the mind flayer for amnesiaing me but really it was just sloppy inattentive play) with all my good shit in it, said fuck it, went to the castle, tore through everything and got to the wand. so i think that'll end up saving my game. but damn i have a lot to make up.

idk, too much ascii makes my eyes hurt :/

yeah balls to playing in ascii if you don't have to

Mordy do you ever read strategy guides on this or is it just relentless playing over and over that's taught you everything?

I have definitely looked things up but much more a couple years ago and now I look up very little (like generally v obscure things like if I toss a ring into a sink and don't remember what the message means).

Some things you need spoiled I think or you'd never know how to do them ime - kudos to anyone who gets anywhere in this thing with no spoilers. I don't think I'd enjoy it

yeah that's my take on it but i'm still probably too spoiler averse on this thing

this revive made me download the latest ish - didn't realise they'd updated in the last couple of years

Never seen that graphic version, am still playing ascii myself. It's just what I'm used to, played this for the first time nearly thirty years ago, on an old xenix machine. Tried graphic versions but I'm too accustomed to ascii.

Spoilers: Not a fan, but have to agree with Mordy. Some things are nearly impossible to learn without them. My base knowledge is good enough to ride it out, I've ascended nearly ten times I think? No doubt with more knowledge I could do it faster, better etc, but meh.

NV, are you new to this or have you played it often before?

Mordy, what did breaking your wand do?

My latest effort got short tracked when I got death zapped by a kobold. -_-

it teleported all the monsters surrounding me to elsewhere in the level

kobold w/ a death wand!!!

I know, so tragic a death I could only laugh tbh.

I really need spoilers on breaking wands and the effects of that, as that is completely new to me. Great escape!

i used to play it quite a lot a few years ago tho i suspect not as much as some of you guys, always pondered whether to look at guides or not, could do with a guide that tells you stuff you really need to know without killing all the surprises i think

salvaged that shit - reconstituted my inventory, got a bunch of levels down in gehennim, grabbed the candleabra, things were going great, and then i blew up my bag of holding again bc thoughtlessness. felt so despondent i "let" a master lich destroy me. time to start over.

Oof, that's harsh. (did you have the Grayswandir? Especially useful in Ghehenomm)

I'm not a big gamer, but unlike other games having to start over, with Nethack a death never bothers me for long? With Super Mario, say, you have to do everything over again exactly the same way. Nethack is fresh and a completely new exp from the get go. Which even makes having to do Sokoban every time again bearable.

yes, one thing that makes it not just bearable but actually kinda enjoyable to start a new game (and why i have 2 simultaneous) is v similar ime to like opening a new booster pack of mtg cards when i was a kid - just the totally fresh possibility of everything / who knows what you'll find (often punctuated by disappointment but w/ exciting enough results often enough that the brain def gets hooked on this skinnerism shit and just can't wait to rip open the new pack / restart the game and see what shit is lying around waiting to be identified).

i hadn't seen a bones file floor since i started playing again but last night i started a game where i hit 3 in a row and they all had amazing stuff on them. i only just finished the mines (and grabbed my luckstone) and i already have Mjollnir, a +7 Excalibur, +2 gray dragon scale male, a bag of holding, 2 magic markers, an amulet of reflection, a ton of rings i need to identify, a ton of wands i need to identify, and just stacks and stacks of potions and scrolls. and super lucky conveniently placed altars throughout the dungeons for easy BUC identification and holy water production. i'm only trying to play when i can focus my attention (so i stop accidentally putting wands of cancellation and bags of tricks into my bags of holding) so it'll have to wait until after my kids are asleep tonight, but i'm feeling pretty good about this one. and i still have like 20 floors to go before the castle.

question: does anyone know - if the valkyrie throws mjollnir at an eel, and it doesn't return (i think it has a 1% chance of not returning) - is there a way to fish it out of the water? or is it just lost at that point? cause one of the main reasons i want the gauntlets of power is so i can throw it at eels and not have to get close enough to be drowned.

Wow, that's really fortunate Mordy. Were you able to uncurse all those items with holy water? +7 Excaliber! I've not encountered a bones file on my recent travails.

I ended playing (Valkyrie as well) last night in the Castle. The eels in the moat aren't trouble at all, one or two blows with Exc and they're dead. Not sure if you will retrieve your Mjollnir though. Maybe if you have an amulet of magical breathing and can swim over the place you dropped it? Don't quote me on that though.

If you've got a wand of teleportation you can also teleport the eel onto land, where it's basically powerless. The amount of eels is fixed iirc, there won't be new ones popping up ad infinitum I think.

So I'm at the Castle now and have a decent kit. I like playing at night but should indeed stop before I love concentration, too. Last night a simple miss press of a key caused me to nearly drown and "drop some stuff to be able to crawl out", something like that? Turned out I'd lost my bag of holding in the water ;_; In the same castle is a wand of wishing so asked for a holding bag again, but still.

*stop concentrating