big budget album recording

It didn't used to matter about these things - listen to Keith Moon, Mitch Mitchell etc. - their timing is all over the place, indeed it was part of the charm of the music. But that charm doesn't seem to be much valued any more. Most drummers seem to aspire to be tight, like programmed drums, and maybe the public have got so used to quantised beats and very tight, comped live drums that they subconsciously reject sloppy playing in a way they didn't 20+ years ago.

And the point isn't strictly whether something is out-of-time or not (although a lot of very rigid producers seem to turn it into that) -- the point is whether it works or not, and surely it's better for any particular product to have a producer who can identify when it doesn't and try to improve that somehow. (In other words, the call here should be less "let them play out of time" and more "well out-of-time isn't necessarily bad, so please be judicious when deciding whether or not it needs to be futzed with.")

Leave alone my guess that the majority of drummers who play out of time play out of time in an straight-up "bad" and not an "interesting" way.

Great records (by *conventional* guitar bands) cannot be made using the process that these guys use to make records, because the WHOLE PROCESS necessarily produces something stillborn. At first there should be TOTAL emphasis on speed, intensity and purity of performance - and technical stuff should come later.

This is why no great major label, big budget, guitar-band records are made anymore. The guitar in the mainstream is dead.

Electronica/Dance/Other Stuff works differently and this doesn't apply.

The fact is that if you're making a record and there's something going wrong with it, it doesn't really help to say "oh, with great artists this wouldn't happen" and scrap the whole thing -- it's a lot more practical to, like, fix it.

Pish. Probably half of what I listen to probably hasn't been anywhere near a protools studio. I don't think I'm alone in saying I'd rather listen to a good band recorded on whatever than a bad one chopped to bits on a computer to make them 'acceptable'.

Not sure who 'you' is referring to. My point was that I find the old, un-edited style more acceptable because it has more personality and charm and yes frailty. Unfortunately most people are now accustomed to the smoothed-out, more generic products of today so the industry sees those techniques as more or less essential.

Thank you god, my prayers have been answered, I've been jonesing for Bitchslap for MONTHS! I even dreamed about them...

he's just plain wrong about many NYC things (big surprise), but no more so than any other tourist.

I stumbled across this thread, as I'm putting together the 'reviews' of my story for some pitches (yes, big plans on the horizon!). I would just like to say that I found all your comments very enjoyable thank you for that.

I particularly found Bucky's comment: "he's just plain wrong about many NYC things (big surprise), but no more so than any other tourist."

Seeing as I grew up in North Jersey and spent an inordinate amount of my childhood and young adult life in New York City, I find it nothing short of humorous for me to now be called a tourist. Yes, it's true, since I've lived in California for so long I find the general over-abundance in New York City slightly disstasteful, but that doesn't make me tourist!

Honestly, can I help it if I became suddenly and inexplicably lactose intolerant shortly after I turned 30, and I have been permanently deprived the joy of a New York Pizza? So depressing. I could kill myself just thinking about it.

Oh, well. Tofu burger, anyone?

Mixerman

Loved yr story.

They seem to have some criteria similar to the book. Switched record companies, replaced bass player and drummer before the new album came out. Also had a minor hit in 2000 and started recording in 2002.

http://www.laweekly.com/ink/06/02/class-payne.php

"In classic major-label style, whatever supporters Tsar had at Hollywood ultimately departed the label, leaving the band adrift and vulnerable to attack. While Hollywood did get a new head of A&R who was, according to Whalen, a true music lover and very fond of Tsar, the label’s head honchos were so out of touch that the band felt like they were living in a purgatory-like limbo."