Grimes/Claire Boucher thread

xpost a lot of people clearly do! prolego is referring to the voice of the patriarchy, just like everyone on every ILM thread

obviously with sexism being a major feature of recording industry in 20th century history of solo female pop music is more replete with female popstars who can't sing great. but obvs there's a tonne who are incredible and given all their due and to say female pop singers have "never won" on accreditation of their voices is just plain wrong and really a bizarre formulation.

i didn't say "never win", only rarely. but it's a bit suspicious listing these (often soul) singers that are safely canonized 20/30 years after they were popular. aaliyah was definitely not considered a great singer by critics or indie dudes when she was alive! kate bush was sidelined for the first decade of her career. mariah is only starting to get her due respect now she's birthed several imitators. i'm sure it'll be great in 30 years time when jazmine sullivan is retrospectively judged as one of the all time great vocalists but women are rarely given the props they deserve when they're actually active on the charts.

Do the opinions of music critics really matter though? All of the figures you mentioned "won" in the industry. It was only punk ideologues who didn't vibe to Kate Bush.

well i doubt any of them are crying over the opinions of music critics, least of all madonna, but a lot of systemic sexism within the music press does seem to have had an effect about how ppl often talk about female artists in conversation? idk

prolego otm

"They need something edgy. They need songwriting," he said. "She can’t just have her Avicii, her producers or whatever, come up with a new techno jam for her to gyrate to and pretend that she’s 20 years old. They actually need songs. I’m partly responsible for that return-to-values thing."

"I guess it’s called ‘throwback’, but the first record was so good because of the songs," he said. "It's been a downward slide (since). Ray of Light is not cool. And all the other stuff she’s done after that, it’s not like it matters. It really shows a drain of values. People need more substance in their mac-and-cheese. People need more sugar or something."

Ariel Pink is full of shit, duh

I only like early Madonna but it has nothing to do with a "drain of values"

according to pitchfork's ongoing beef coverage, black lips is siding with pink, Waxahatchee with grimes. i sure hope madonna doesn't wind up indie's archduke ferdinand

They need something edgy. TRUE
They need songwriting. TRUE
She can’t just have her Avicii, her producers or whatever, come up with a new techno jam for her to gyrate to and pretend that she’s 20 years old. TRUE
They actually need songs. TRUE
I’m partly responsible for that return-to-values thing. FALSE
I guess it’s called ‘throwback’, but the first record was so good because of the songs. TRUE
It's been a downward slide (since). FALSE
Ray of Light is not cool. FALSE
And all the other stuff she’s done after that, it’s not like it matters. TRUE
It really shows a drain of values. FALSE
People need more substance in their mac-and-cheese. FALSE
People need more sugar or something. FALSE

whose side is tapes n' tapes on?

grimes is a personal hero and role model to me but i think she is ceding too much to ariel pink by engaging with his delusional nonsense. she shouldn't be in a feud with a known maniac, much as i enjoy his early lo-fi albums

has menomena weighed in?

"hung up" alone matters more than this dude's entire pathetic existence.

FALSEST thing ever clearly

and tUnE-yArDs?

Why does implying Madonna can't write her own music has to do anything with gender?

what do majical cloudz think of all this?

the opinions of (some) critics shouldn't matter but often the most influential writers have been the male writers who are quick to dismiss female artists and who tend to champion those who are most like them cf white dudes full of ennui. it's not so much outright dismissal of many female musicians as much as it is ignoring them completely and not including them in the history to an extent.

grimes can pick what battles she feels like

the amount of misogynistic bullshit in the music industry is so much that pushing back against it - any of it - is all about picking your battles, and props to grimes for fighting at all. why criticise her for speaking out?? i don't think keeping quiet will solve anything.

I think Ariel Pink is being an asshole but I don't see the misogyny in his comment.

i am confused about this whole "ariel pink sucks" thing. do we not find "every night i die at miyagi's" compellingly fucked anymore? i don't know why people are surprised that the artist behind "worn copy" says stupid, crazy shit.

the misogyny is that ariel pink probably wouldn't say "Usher can’t just have his Avicii, his producers or whatever, come up with a new techno jam for him to gyrate to and pretend that he’s 20 years old." You can say OH YES HE WOULD, but that kind of extraction from the creative process is far more commonly assigned to female artists

lol just realised treeship's last couple of criticisms basically amount to telling grimes to stfu

"music critics don't matter anyway so you should be quiet!"
"ariel pink is crazy so you should be quiet!"

always a reason why women talking about misogyny don't actually need to speak, right

mariah is only starting to get her due respect now she's birthed several imitators.

This is flatly untrue, at least in the US.

it's actually funny/completely fucking boring how just about every producer that has worked with madonna has come out afterwards and said stuff like "omg she's actually hugely involved with the music making progress!!! she actually writes the lyrics and melodies and contributes to nearly all production decisions!!!". diplo being the latest in the past 30 years. sometimes i think it's b/c she's not stressed her musicianship enough, but then i look at say mariah who mentions she's a songwriter primarily in every damn interview and press release and every year i still here people saying they thought "all i want for xmas is you" is a cover. the autership and autonomy of female pop stars is constantly doubted and questioned in a way it just isn't with men of similar stature.

xp lex, that seems uncharitable. i wouldn't be a grimes fan if i didn't like that she spoke out about gender issues. and i didn't say that her or anyone shouldn't speak out against music critics, i was just questioning aloud the narrative prolega put forth about kate bush et al being "sidelined." sidelined by whom? left out of whose canon? with ariel pink, it all just seems weird to me that he is being engaged at all for his comments about madonna's people commissioning him to restore her "legitmacy." these comments were not rooted in reality. grimes and whoever else can critique them -- go nuts -- but i don't understand why i can't have views on these things without being accused of having some kind of ulterior motive

Kate bush was bas

Whoops hang on

kate bush was basically someone who was never talked about with the same level of respect and attention that many of her inferior male contemporaries were and still are to some degree. and i doubt some dipshit session musician would come out and say the same things about, idk, peter gabriel as he said abt kate bush.

wait

"All I Want For Xmas Is You" is not a cover? That.... is amazing I always thought it was some 1940s staple that'd been updated, holy shit

MIND BLOWN

It's weird that he would pick on Madonna, cause regardless of whether she wrote her own shit (which sometimes she did, sometimes she didn't) she has always been very clearly in charge of her own creations, and I'm sure even now she dictates to the label what she wants to do. If Avicii produces a track on Madonna's new album, it's because Madonna wanted him there, not because of the machinations of an A&R guy.

I still fail to see how saying that Madonna just knows how to dance and hire producers to write her music is a comment directed against all women and not just her, if anything it's a snide comment against pop stardom. I've made similar comments myself and they have nothing to do with gender. It's just feeding on the idea that pop stars very rarely write their own music. I see One Direction as dancing puppets that don't write their own songs, does that make me a misandrist?

yup

sorry ;_;

I'm not defending him, an artist like him doesn't get to pick on an artist like Madonna. That's like ducks shooting at guns. I just don't think he was being misogynistic.

(I was not being serious, in case that was unclear; hopefully I have never used the ;_; emoticon in a serious post)

kate bush was basically someone who was never talked about with the same level of respect and attention that many of her inferior male contemporaries were and still are to some degree.

do you mean like in the press or what

everybody I knew back when would never ever stfu about the godlike genius of Kate Bush basically from Never Forever forward

moka, rather than wail away that assuming a pop star heavily involved in their music is just an old body that thinks she's a young body isn't inherently sexist, maybe just note that a lot of people think that's an assumption most often aimed at women? rather than defending the assumption?

yeah i meant the press, i mean obviously there's always been a big kate bush fanbase that has always loved her.

it's still shitty to assume people don't have anything to do with their music just because they're attractive and can dance. even if you do it to enrique iglesias or some other boy.

I still fail to see how saying that Madonna just knows how to dance and hire producers to write her music is a comment directed against all women and not just her, if anything it's a snide comment against pop stardom. I've made similar comments myself and they have nothing to do with gender. It's just feeding on the idea that pop stars very rarely write their own music. I see One Direction as dancing puppets that don't write their own songs, does that make me a misandrist?

certain members of one direction do actually write their own songs! (liam, louis, harry even did that awful ariana grande song) just usually the unspoken assumption behind coming for the likes of one direction and justin bieber is "lol teenage girls" rather than misandry (not saying that's you here moka). a more relevant example here would be justin timberlake who despite working entirely with timbaland for two albums has never been called his muse or puppet in a way certain female popstars have.

but obviously pop nowadays is mostly dominated by women (thx in part to madonna's impact) so they bare the brunt of kneejerk anti-pop hatred.

if ariel pink wasn't misogynist he'd still be ageist and if he wasn't ageist he'd still be a dickhead.

madonna had the perfect ageism rebuttal ready in advance 20 yrs ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNqjZ9C2ZVQ
are you supposed to just die when you're 40? <3

prolego killin it all the way itt

Why are there like 70 new answers on this thread since this morning? Can someone give me a recap of what happened up behind the fold, or do I just not even want to know?

Ariel Pink was being an ass again. Grimes weighed in.

Ariel Pink:

"They need something edgy. They need songwriting," he said. "She can’t just have her Avicii, her producers or whatever, come up with a new techno jam for her to gyrate to and pretend that she’s 20 years old. They actually need songs. I’m partly responsible for that return-to-values thing."
"I guess it’s called ‘throwback’, but the first record was so good because of the songs," he said. "It's been a downward slide (since). Ray of Light is not cool. And all the other stuff she’s done after that, it’s not like it matters. It really shows a drain of values. People need more substance in their mac-and-cheese. People need more sugar or something."

Grimes:

Ariel pinks delusional misogyny is emblematic of the kind of bullshit everyone woman in this industry faces daily. Also Ray of Light is a masterpiece

So it's basically 70 posts of STFU Ariel Pink? Good work, ppl! Thanks for the recap.

Prolego otm.

and I really wish he left mac-and-cheese out of this.