Grimes/Claire Boucher thread

what does she want them to become

everyone needs to stop being mean to ariel pink

hopefully a lengthy article about beta male misogyny will now get posted on every music forum

Whats so misogonist about not likink Madonna's records?

nothing per se but when you couch that dislike in vitriolic sexist/ageist/rockist language ppl are going to call you out on being a piece of shit

i can easily take sides here, grimes is cool ariel pink seems like a dick, but somehow knowing about this story makes me feel like im wasting my life

"She can’t just have her Avicii, her producers or whatever, come up with a new techno jam for her to gyrate to and pretend that she’s 20 years old. They actually need songs. I’m partly responsible for that return-to-values thing."

this sounds very sexist. but i am disturbed at the fact that it doesn't seem like ariel pink was actually ever contracted by madonna to write songs. he has always been a troubled guy... maybe now he is delusional?

The sexist think is the 20 years old thing, but I think he would have said it also if it was a male singer that he used to like and now not, too.

Yeah, there's nothing overtly misogynist/sexist in Pink's comments.

But y'know, some guy called Default Genders has weighed in, so that's worth reporting.

oh huh cool James brooks put an album out

wtf. Saying that Madonna is only making music to 'gyrate to and pretend that she's 20 years old' (because old women, lol!) is completely misogynistic. Also implying that it's just her producers who make the music, while she just dances. Because of course Madonna can't be writing her own stuff.

there's nothing overt, just the ongoing theme of diminishing the songwriting talents of women and giving full credit to their producers, something that's seldom done to men

obviously different vocalists have varying levels of songwriting/arranging/production input on their albums but it's seldom used against men as a weapon to diminish their perceived talent

whoops, Frederik beat me to it

that point came to mind in the last few days following the news of Mark Bell's death. some people not that familiar with his LFO work mentioned his ongoing collaboration with Bjork, which is cool, but some people went far enough to say he was "responsible" for one of their fave Bjork albums which is completely wrongheaded as he was an amazing producer but Bjork notably does her own work. but I guess men do the real work, or something.

"responsible" in this context is one of those terms which can mean pretty much any degree of credit for the final product. not sure where you saw it but I could imagine someone using it yesterday to bang out a Mark Bell obit as fast as possible without having to look into exactly what his role was

naw

I’m partly responsible for that return-to-values thing.

hahaha

What's that french sounding word that's like curator that sounds like orr-ter? That's what Madonna has always been. A genius of capturing some moment in some sort of scene, immersing in it, and blowing it up. Been associating herself near creatives since before she was famous, to be famous (i.e Basquiat in NY). AP not exactly the first person to say she's not a great singer or a great musician or doesn't play an instrument or whatever. It doesn't really matter to what she's doing and to say that she's not a musician like Prince or something isn't misogynist. She left her hometown to New York to be famous in showbusiness, not be a musician.

if you mean auteur, it doesn't mean what you think it means (but it's still applicable)
if you mean hauteur, it also doesn't mean that, and it's definitely applicable

did Raccoon Takuki just out himself as a britisher by thinking "au" has an "r" sound

where's alfred to pull out all of madonna's songwriting receipts

Last time I looked, singing was still being a musician.

if you mean auteur, it doesn't mean what you think it means (but it's still applicable)
if you mean hauteur, it also doesn't mean that, and it's definitely applicable

thanks and yes I got it wrong.

Last time I looked, singing was still being a musician.

but people have always said she couldn't sing. it doesn't matter. she's still a musician. these definitions are irrelevant.

bricoleur?

female pop singers can barely ever win when it comes to singing. either they "can't sing" (a charge rarely levelled at dudes where singing off-key too often codes as authenticity) or they're emotionless show-boating bots (mariah, whitney, celine)

who was saying madonna can't sing? i'm confused.

but prolego otm.

either they "can't sing" (a charge rarely levelled at dudes where singing off-key too often codes as authenticity)

I would like to point out for the record that I say this about dudes all the time (hi dere Ryan Tedder)

female pop singers can barely ever win when it comes to singing. either they "can't sing" (a charge rarely levelled at dudes where singing off-key too often codes as authenticity) or they're emotionless show-boating bots (mariah, whitney, celine)

Same with men people always have their opinions. Dylan, McCartney, Lennon. I guess your barely ever win would have to include quite a few who do like Tracy Chapman, Joni, Flack, Diana Ross, Lauryn, Adele, Nina Simeone, Dolly, Dusty, Mary, Estefan, Kate Bush, Aretha, Aaliyah. Just because a few like Rihanna and Britney can't hold a note, Aguilera can't reign it in doesn't say that women vocalists 'never win when it comes to singing'

xpost a lot of people clearly do! prolego is referring to the voice of the patriarchy, just like everyone on every ILM thread

obviously with sexism being a major feature of recording industry in 20th century history of solo female pop music is more replete with female popstars who can't sing great. but obvs there's a tonne who are incredible and given all their due and to say female pop singers have "never won" on accreditation of their voices is just plain wrong and really a bizarre formulation.

i didn't say "never win", only rarely. but it's a bit suspicious listing these (often soul) singers that are safely canonized 20/30 years after they were popular. aaliyah was definitely not considered a great singer by critics or indie dudes when she was alive! kate bush was sidelined for the first decade of her career. mariah is only starting to get her due respect now she's birthed several imitators. i'm sure it'll be great in 30 years time when jazmine sullivan is retrospectively judged as one of the all time great vocalists but women are rarely given the props they deserve when they're actually active on the charts.

Do the opinions of music critics really matter though? All of the figures you mentioned "won" in the industry. It was only punk ideologues who didn't vibe to Kate Bush.

well i doubt any of them are crying over the opinions of music critics, least of all madonna, but a lot of systemic sexism within the music press does seem to have had an effect about how ppl often talk about female artists in conversation? idk

prolego otm

"They need something edgy. They need songwriting," he said. "She can’t just have her Avicii, her producers or whatever, come up with a new techno jam for her to gyrate to and pretend that she’s 20 years old. They actually need songs. I’m partly responsible for that return-to-values thing."

"I guess it’s called ‘throwback’, but the first record was so good because of the songs," he said. "It's been a downward slide (since). Ray of Light is not cool. And all the other stuff she’s done after that, it’s not like it matters. It really shows a drain of values. People need more substance in their mac-and-cheese. People need more sugar or something."

Ariel Pink is full of shit, duh

I only like early Madonna but it has nothing to do with a "drain of values"

according to pitchfork's ongoing beef coverage, black lips is siding with pink, Waxahatchee with grimes. i sure hope madonna doesn't wind up indie's archduke ferdinand

They need something edgy. TRUE
They need songwriting. TRUE
She can’t just have her Avicii, her producers or whatever, come up with a new techno jam for her to gyrate to and pretend that she’s 20 years old. TRUE
They actually need songs. TRUE
I’m partly responsible for that return-to-values thing. FALSE
I guess it’s called ‘throwback’, but the first record was so good because of the songs. TRUE
It's been a downward slide (since). FALSE
Ray of Light is not cool. FALSE
And all the other stuff she’s done after that, it’s not like it matters. TRUE
It really shows a drain of values. FALSE
People need more substance in their mac-and-cheese. FALSE
People need more sugar or something. FALSE

whose side is tapes n' tapes on?

grimes is a personal hero and role model to me but i think she is ceding too much to ariel pink by engaging with his delusional nonsense. she shouldn't be in a feud with a known maniac, much as i enjoy his early lo-fi albums

has menomena weighed in?

"hung up" alone matters more than this dude's entire pathetic existence.

FALSEST thing ever clearly

and tUnE-yArDs?

Why does implying Madonna can't write her own music has to do anything with gender?

what do majical cloudz think of all this?

the opinions of (some) critics shouldn't matter but often the most influential writers have been the male writers who are quick to dismiss female artists and who tend to champion those who are most like them cf white dudes full of ennui. it's not so much outright dismissal of many female musicians as much as it is ignoring them completely and not including them in the history to an extent.

grimes can pick what battles she feels like

the amount of misogynistic bullshit in the music industry is so much that pushing back against it - any of it - is all about picking your battles, and props to grimes for fighting at all. why criticise her for speaking out?? i don't think keeping quiet will solve anything.

I think Ariel Pink is being an asshole but I don't see the misogyny in his comment.