rolling fantasy, science fiction, speculative fiction &c. thread

oh paolopaws

Lol.

Think there were more subtleties to the posts responding to that article than just "if only the mundane readers would bother to acquire the sf toolkit instead of comforting themselves with that EZ Reader cozy comfort realist stuff."

Hm. Now that I posted that and reread it maybe it isn't so bad.

I remember enjoying Bear's early Blood Music, although I did get more interested in some of the characters passing through (good profiles, right up to the moment of their oops upside the head and then some). But the doom also turned out to be a good disgusting parody of then flourishing New Age and pop cosmology; certain SF utopian trends too. Haven't read any of his others: they all got a lot more pages, duhhh.
Benford is weird: some genuinely creative drive competing w ponderous I Am A Real Scientist self-consciousness, the sub-Heinlein, sub-Poul conservative yet outward bound problem-solving righteousness, too often--yet sometimes his artistic side wins.

more interested in the character sketches than the plot, that is.

I've mostly heard truly enormous praise for Egan, this is the first I've heard of him being a sloppy writer.

Not a sloppy writer, and his earlier novels and short stories are tremendous. But his last 3 or 4 books have been alarmingly poor. I understand that he has pretty much said that now he is only interested in ideas and not characters, and the books are vast, complicated thought experiments about alternate physics and rebooted mathematics, which makes them interesting in a sterile sort of way, but pretty lacking as literary experiences.

So which things would you recommend to the reluctant, James M?

Anyway, I'd like to say that on the one hand, I basically agree with the Delany-originated or -promoted idea that sf should be judged using different criteria from those appropriate literary, "mundane" fiction. On the other hand, it makes trying to figure out based on stylistic considerations whether you are going to want to continue reading something an interstellar version of the Monty Hall problem- you can't tell behind which dilating door lies the Big Dipper of the Day and which dilating doors just lead under Capricorn.

Like should I continue to read this George Alec Effinger story?

I T WAS Y EAR 30, Day 1, the anniversary of Dr. Leslie Gillette’s leaving Earth. Standing alone at the port, he stared out at the empty expanse of null space. “At eight o’clock, the temperature in the interstellar void is a negative two hundred seventy- three degrees Celsius,” he said. “Even without the wind chill factor, that’s cold. That’s pretty damn cold.”

Re Egan, I'd try Teranesia (DNA optimisation bleeding through parallel universes) or Quarantine (detective thriller meets quantum theory) for the novels, or the short story collection Axiomatic, which blew my mind when I first read it--full of amazing ideas used up in 25-page stories which most SF writers would kill to hang a 600-page doorstopper on.

bought this the other day. will read soon. some stories are online.

http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2013/12/table-of-contents-the-years-best-science-fiction-thirty-first-annual-collection-edited-by-gardner-dozois/

(so many links in the intro. to online content.)

Egan's Diaspora is a good post singularity parallel universe billion year spree, Permutation City a rather philosophically inclined exploration of brain simulations, mind as software. But yeah I gave up on him after reading a story with the worst possible caricatures of scientist as enlightened free thinking superhero, artist as ignorant blinkered luddite. Online if you're a glutton for punishment: http://gregegan.customer.netspace.net.au/PLANCK/Complete/Planck.html

Lol. Think I am inclined to prefer hard sf when it has at least a dash of Arthur C. Clarke mysticism. That thing is right out of the Sladek parodies.

Actually Sladek parody of Arthur C. Clarke himself is pretty good.

Almost couldn't read Cordwainer Smith again after reading his parody.

having just finished that Sladek book I def found the Smith parody amusing in nailing all the things I found ridiculous and irritating abt him.

Benford is weird: some genuinely creative drive competing w ponderous I Am A Real Scientist self-consciousness, the sub-Heinlein, sub-Poul conservative yet outward bound problem-solving righteousness, too often--yet sometimes his artistic side wins.

Re: Poul A, I really enjoyed the anachronistic but pessimistic or at least downbeat tales I've read of his, such as "The Man Who Came Early" or "The Longest Voyage," and also the audacious hard SF of "Call Me Joe" but one Hugo winner I read of his about some post-apocalyptic US civil war was exactly the worst kind of conlibertarian claptrap you might be afraid he'd write.

Yeah, I reckon if Timescape doesn't work for you, Benford's probably not going to cut it.

Do you recommend I stick with it?

Anyway I just read something great. Brian W. Aldiss's "Hothouse," the first chapter of the novel known variously by the same name or as The Long Afternoon of Earth which originally appeared as a short story. Bold and beautiful concept, brilliantly executed. Wonder if I should try to get a hold of the novel.

Okay, since all three of the following, in no particular order, Anthony Burgess, M. John Harrison and James Morrison seem to like Timescape I guess I'd better find time for it.

sloppy writing

Haven't read that; think this is the best of his I've read, except maybe for a couple I don't remember that well (so how good could they be, eh)
One more (maybe the last; several duds since this) from Ascent of Wonder. Gregory Benford is another big old name (late-70s-80s-90s; haven't heard about him lately) I never quite got into, and "Relativistic Effects" ends abruptly, but it's a fairly well-aimed slingshot ending, to use Science Fiction Encyclopedia Online's increasingly useful term. A runaway spaceship has been traveling for five million years in ourtime, about five generations in crewtime, with the crew doing their best to internalize, and, you know, work with both those measurements. They're on a supply ship, so plenty of educational and entertainment materials to keep the roots thing going, and they've got plenty of cool, optimistic sci-tech projects going, within what's kind of a caste system, but it's not absolute yet, cause you do need to motivate some fresh blood (easy now). A fella who wants to go above his raising is mighty suspect to some on his own level, and everybody knows it's a delicate balance, and (cue L.Cohen's "Everybody Knows"). So you get this groovy Clarkean starscape, possibly deluded, though mellow, mentally fleet elites, and def some grubby, robust beef brewing below becks.

― dow, Sunday, April 7, 2013 3:40 PM (1 year ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Every time you mention that book I think you are talking about this gigantic anthology called Sense of Wonder.

― What About The Half That's Never Been POLLed (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, April 7, 2013 4:34 PM (1 year ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

And "Doing Lennon," at the very end of this previously, frequently-discussed-by-me, uneven but usually worthy anth, was pretty good, not too terribly stiff:

Great Tales of Science Fiction
by Robert Silverberg (Editor), Martin H. Greenberg (Editor)
3.59 of 5 stars 3.59 · rating details · 17 ratings · 2 reviews
Introduction · Robert Silverberg
Mellonta Tauta · Edgar Allan Poe · Godey’s Lady’s Book Feb, 1849
In the Year 2889 · Jules Verne · The Forum Feb, 1889
Sold to Satan [written Jan 1904] · Mark Twain · Europe & Elsewhere, Harper Bros., 1923
The New Accelerator · H.G. Wells · The Strand Dec ’01
Finis · Frank Lillie Pollock · Argosy Jun ’06
As Easy as A.B.C. · Rudyard Kipling · The London Magazine Mar ’12
Dark Lot of One Saul · M.P. Shiel · The Grand Magazine Feb ’12
R.U.R. · Karel Capek · 1921
The Tissue-Culture King · Julian Huxley · Yale Review Apr ’26
The Metal Man · Jack Williamson · Amazing Dec ’28
The Gostak and the Doshes · Miles J. Breuer · Amazing Mar ’30
Alas, All Thinking! · Harry Bates · Astounding Jun ’35
The Mad Moon · Stanley G. Weinbaum · Astounding Dec ’35
As Never Was · P. Schuyler Miller · Astounding Jan ’44
Desertion/City · Clifford D. Simak · Astounding Nov ’44
The Strange Case of John Kingman · Murray Leinster · Astounding May ’48
Dreams Are Sacred · Peter Phillips · Astounding Sep ’48
Misbegotten Missionary · Isaac Asimov · Galaxy Nov ’50
Dune Roller · Julian May · Astounding Dec ’51
Warm · Robert Sheckley · Galaxy Jun ’53
A Bad Day for Sales · Fritz Leiber · Galaxy Jul ’53
Man of Parts · Horace L. Gold · 9 Tales of Space & Time, ed. Raymond J. Healey, Holt, 1954
The Man Who Came Early · Poul Anderson · F&SF Jun ’56
The Burning of the Brain · Cordwainer Smith · If Oct ’58
The Men Who Murdered Mohammed · Alfred Bester · F&SF Oct ’58
The Man Who Lost the Sea · Theodore Sturgeon · F&SF Oct ’59
Goodlife/Berserker · Fred Saberhagen · Worlds of Tomorrow 12/63
The Sliced-Crosswise Only-On-Tuesday World · Philip José Farmer · New Dimensions I, ed Robert Silverberg, Doubleday, 1971
Gehenna · Barry N. Malzberg · Galaxy Mar ’71
A Meeting with Medusa · Arthur C. Clarke · Playboy Dec ’71
Painwise · James Tiptree, Jr · F&SF Feb ’72
Nobody’s Home · Joanna Russ · New Dimensions II, ed. Robert Silverberg, Doubleday, 1972
Think Only This of Me · Michael J. Kurland · Galaxy Nov ’73
Capricorn Games · Robert Silverberg · The Far Side of Time, ed. Roger Elwood, Dodd Mead, 1974
The Author of the Acacia Seeds & Other Extracts from the Journal of the Association of Therolinguistics · Ursula Le Guin · Fellowship of the Stars, ed Terry Carr, Simon & Schuster, 1974
Doing Lennon · Gregory Benford · Analog Apr ’75(less)

Thanks for reporting, don, thread is getting to such Dave Matthews thread magnitude reading too far back up thread may cause time travel paradox.

Okay, since all three of the following, in no particular order, Anthony Burgess, M. John Harrison and James Morrison seem to like /Timescape/ I guess I'd better find time for it.

Wow, Thomas Disch too. http://www.writersreps.com/feature.aspx?FeatureID=22

Weird, stuff on that list I somehow thought he didn't like: The Dispossessed, Lord Valentine's Castle, "Options." I wonder who compiled that and where they got the info from.

Okay, looks like some of it came from that On SF book I thought Shakey was reading. Disch liked "Options" well enough to consider including it on a year end best list but had problems with it. The inclusion of Lord's Valentine's Castle was, as suspected, based on a misreading of something, which is clear from this interview: http://www.ukjarry1.talktalk.net/difil.htm

Do you recommend I stick with it?

I would, FWIW, especially if you have some interest in weird physics possibilities. I read it about 20 years ago, so I'm not sure how much I'd love it now, but I did really dig it at the time.

Anyway I just read something great. Brian W. Aldiss's "Hothouse," the first chapter of the novel known variously by the same name or as The Long Afternoon of Earth which originally appeared as a short story. Bold and beautiful concept, brilliantly executed. Wonder if I should try to get a hold of the novel.

The book is quite good--perhaps loses some of the power of the short story at greater length, and has some very dodgy science if that bothers you--but well worth reading

Dodgy science isn't going to bother me (cf. recent Aldiss quotation about ghosts), more likely to be bothered by its "opposite" -pages of equations or what might as well be equations infused with geeky self-regard instead of interesting or at least decent prose about something other than galactic navel gazing, The Lint in God's Omphalos.

Weird, stuff on that list I somehow thought he didn't like: The Dispossessed,

yeah this entry surprises me a little - I can see how he would be taken by its scope but he seemed to really have a problem with her gender politics (which is perhaps why Dispossessed is here and not Left Hand of Darkness), maybe this was some grudging respect. He was a crank, who can say.

for my part, done with Sladek, on to Kuttner & Moore collection. The first two entries are solo stories and not collaborations (Shambleau and the Graveyard Rats) both owing a significant debt to Lovecraft as far as I can tell, although the former is maybe more successful on a purely stylistic level. And now I'm on some story about gnomes? I've never read much pulp horror/fantasy stuff from this period - may skip ahead. Curious in particular about one called "Reader, I Hate You" lol.

Dispossessed

Think the guy who compiled that list didn't totally understand what Disch was getting at, maybe just because Disch discussed something it was taken as an indication that he liked it. I know for a fact that Lord Valentine's Castle is included because of such an error- Disch uses it as the punch line in poem written by a character he despises, failed avant-garde filmmaker turned the world's worst underground poet, poem is called something like "why i like science fiction." You can read it in Dark Verses & Light, which I recommend.

"Graveyard Rats" very early Kuttner, maybe his first, don't believe anyone thinks it's his best.

Anyway came to post that I just quickly read The Cambridge Companion to Science Fiction, edited by Edward James and Farrah Mendlesohn, which has got lots of good stuff, particularly- at least for my interests- Chapter 2, The magazine era:1926-1960, by Brian Attebery. Extremely well-organized and thought out, concise witty and elegant retelling of a story that has already been limned in other places, packed with familiar as well as surprising and new (at least to me) information. Do you know who was at Horace Gold's poker game? In any case, if ilxor dow doesn't find anything of interest in this book, I'll eat my gold reflective visor.

DI FILIPPO: Were any of Joycelin's poems ever published anyplace?

DISCH: A few of them appeared in an English magazine' named Quarto. But mostly, nobody would touch them. The only places where they would be understood would be the places that would publish the kind of poems I'm satirizing. I mean, Joycelin is the world's worst Beat poet. Who's going to want to publish her? You know the St. Mark's crew? I was sort of peripherally among those people. Finally, I didn't qualify. But I got to know them well enough, and I certainly know the way they write. A particular kind of slack, lazy, doped-out way of writing poems, which Joycelin perfectly captures.

DI FILIPPO: It seems like her two guiding lights are Archy the cockroach and e.e. cummings. Is that an accurate as-sessment of her influences?

DISCH: Joycelin has many. influences. You wouldn't know some of them. Some of her dedicatees are the people who have been formative influences. Bernadette Meyer and others. Anne Waldman was a huge influence. Some of these are people whom I like, and whose poetry I enjoy, but who are nevertheless capable of being satirized. And I just couldn't resist the impulse to make fun of them.

DI FILIPPO: We have to talk about one. of the central works in Joycelin's oeuvre: "When I Am Sick, Science Fiction. "

DI H:. A tribute to SilverBob.

DI FILIPPO: It seems like a capsule description of a certain kind of SF reader, and the kind of fiction that's turned out to meet their needs. This poem cites Lord Valentine's Castle -

DISCH: Joycelin loved Lord Valentine's Castle.

DI FILIPPO: I'm glad there were many sequels for her.

Hm, Brian Attebery also put together interesting book reviewed here: http://www.strangehorizons.com/reviews/2013/10/parabolas_of_sc.shtml

Which links here, if you are interested in this sort of stuff: http://www.strangehorizons.com/2013/20130826/2rieder-a.shtml

Feel like that one story ledge linked has so much science and so little fiction that I might as well just read a textbook instead.

That Cambridge companion to sf is really good and very readable--avoids the dead tongue of acadamese

Here are some links about editor Cele Goldsmith, who I had known nothing about:

http://lauriepowerswildwest.blogspot.com/2011/05/pulp-fiction-female-pioneers-cele.html?m=1

http://socialistjazz.blogspot.com/2011/05/women-editors-in-fantasy-and-sf-at.html?m=1

http://socialistjazz.blogspot.com/2012/07/cele-goldsmithlalli-interviewed-by.html?m=1

Cambridge Encyclopedia answers Shakey's question:

This new possibility coincided with a major disruption of the magazine market. At the end of the 1950s the primary distributor, the American News Service, was declared a monopoly and had to divest itself of its local holdings. As a direct result, twenty magazines (of various sorts) folded immediately and the others took severe hits in their circulation. 18 The more prosperous magazines were able to keep going, but sf ceased to be identified primarily as a magazine form. Shorter forms, from short- short stories to novellas, gave way to novels and even multi- volume series. In marketing terms, the brand names under which sf could be sold ceased to be Astounding or Galaxy and would become specialized categories such as military sf and science fantasy or individual authors such as Heinlein and Asimov. It is significant that the major magazine of the 1980s and 1990s was called Isaac Asimov’s Science Fiction Magazine .

V interesting! Cant believe Malzberg didnt note this rather obviously significant detail

Asimov's Mag was never edited by IA, though publisher paid for the crowd-drawing name and to let him be a gas giant in monthly columns (after he passed, SilverBob held forth). Early Letters To The Editor complained about how different it was from cherished middle school memories, but soon enough, the range of voices and sensibilities made it work, not that everything was so significantly Asimovian (although it seems likely that many of the writers therein were influenced on some level by early encounters with his early, better stuff, among other poobahs' early, better stuff)

Lol at "gas giant," which I think I noted I learned the other day was coined by James Blish.

(Xp)
I was thinking exactly the same thing! I didn't remember him explaining this very well, if at all. But then I could have sworn yesterday I also read that Malzberg was a source of this information but I didn't have a chance to follow up and chase that down.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_News_Company

Footnote is as follows 18 . Barry Malzberg, ‘Introduction: The Fifties’, in Barry N. Malzberg and Bill Pronzini, eds., The End of Summer: Science Fiction of the Fifties (New York: Ace, 1979), p. 2.

Which I believe is this:
http://www.loa.org/sciencefiction/why_malzberg.jsp

What happened? A lot happened. The historical theory of synchronicity was demonstrated at the end of the decade as never elsewhere before the era of the assassinations began. When it happens, it all happens together, in short. The massive American News Service (ANS), responsible for magazine distribution, was ruled a monopoly and into forced divestiture. Twenty magazines perished in 1958, and the sales of the leaders were halved. These magazines could not reach the newsstands in sufficient numbers. The audience could not find them. But the audience had already diminished; it had never been large enough to support more than a few successful magazines, a few continuing book lines, and Sputnik in 1957 had made science fiction appear, to the fringe audience, bizarre, arcane, irrelevant. There were dangerous matters going on now in near space but the sophisticated, rather decadent form which genre science fiction had become had little connection with satellites in close orbit.

One interesting thing among many in that Wikipedia article is that the magazines were basically forced to switch to digest format by American News and then the other distributors.

Want to read the volumes of Mike Ashley's History of the Science Fiction Magazine. I guess I could go to NYPL and read online through their system.

Just read a few "Mike" M. John Harrison stories and man can that guy write.

He is so good that I don't want to sully his good name by making my own inept attempts to explain why.

that best of the year anthology i bought has circulation numbers for the biggest sf mags and i couldn't believe how tiny they were. asimov's mag is like the biggest sf zine in the u.s. and total circulation is like 20,000+.

maybe some people would think that was a lot, i dunno. every other print mag way less than that.