King Crimson: Classic Or Dud

I really came around on the 2000-03 lineup after digging deep into Heavy Construkction. The improvs really took on a life of their own.

I spent last light and this am listening to the waning days of the 80s band – the Tokyo concert on YouTube sund4r linked upthread, Absent Lovers and Three of a Perfect Pair. Not only did I have no idea he plays the outro solo instead of Belew, but holy shit does Fripp "get down" during the concluding part of "Larks III" in Tokyo. Tons of pained guitar guy faces and he actually stands up a little from his stool. Entertaining and enlightening.

To me the 81-84 Belew records are destroyed by the /Absent Lovers/ double-live set which gets nearly every song I liked from those releases and IMO improves on pretty much everything. It's so full of energy that I remember going back to those vinyls and thinking my turntable was broken - no way the originals were that slow!!

I still have an odd preference for the studio albums with this era of the band. I get that they were a beast live and the solos were nuts (see above). But I'd also argue that the pristine production on those records, while distinctly 80s (HELLO ROLAND JAZZ CHORUS) is actually quite good – and makes the balance much better. Particularly in the Rhett Davies-produced first two, Bruford's syn-drums never dominate or get into the way. The songs feel more like songs as opposed to jams with vocals on them for some reason. And the band tends to play more as a unit – largely, I suspect, because Fripp wouldn't stand for it otherwise.

I get that they aren't as unhinged. But just as I feel about the studio Larks Tongues, there's something about Crimson in the studio that feels like a complete statement in the way a live record couldn't.

I put LTIA pt I on headphones the other night and the way the guitar is mixed in, with it dropping in from nowhere into your right ear, then moving into the center as the violins get more urgent until the whole big riff cuts through and starts stomping around is just the fucking coolest thing.

That track contains universes

http://chimg.onionstatic.com/3302/original/640.jpg

any excuse

i am kicking myself for skipping the nyc shows but, man, $200 is a lot of money. i am super into all the live stuff yall are posting tho, keep it coming please!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPKMw9hMBxQ

"Goodnight everybody. Black Sabbath next weekend, goodnight"

I put LTIA pt I on headphones the other night and the way the guitar is mixed in, with it dropping in from nowhere into your right ear, then moving into the center as the violins get more urgent until the whole big riff cuts through and starts stomping around is just the fucking coolest thing.

Has anyone here braved the LTIA 15-CD box? Does Muir's presence across all the live editions come anywhere near justifying the cost?

In that Fripp Wire interview above, he apparently holds a grudge because some Wire writer a few years back claimed "King Crimson were only ever a poor man's Black Sabbath, nothing more or less". Who the fuck would think that, save someone blatantly trying to troll Fripp?

Nah, just part of that anti-prog snobbery that was prevalent in the early 90s. I think that might've been part of their unflattering A-Z primer on prog that I recall also slammed Magma, just a few months before they published a glowing article.

Anti-prog is one thing, but calling King Crimson a poor man's Sabbath? If anything, a case could be made that Sabbath was a poor man's King Crimson!

A much stronger case, yes.

i didn't go to the Madison show, oops. couldn't ditch out of my own weekly potluck just to satisfy my teenage self.

Review from the NY Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/20/arts/music/king-crimson-plays-at-the-best-buy-theater.html?_r=1

Just sprang for the LTIA box. Couldn't stand it anymore.

also given the class lines wouldn't king crimson be an aspirational middle class man's sabbath, if they were any sabbath

Just picked up a copy of ITCOCK. Gonna listen to it/them for the first time ever tonight.

Seeing the show tonight. Got good seats. Got my prog shoes on.

good deal! the vic? I would have thought park west.

Well? What'd you think, Josh?

So weird. I know I wrote something, but I don't know where I wrote it! Let me look.

Huh. Wonder where I posted that? Anyway, I thought it was a lot of fun, but ultimately didn't justify the three drummer line-up. I love Bill Rieflin in general, but when you have Pat, who plays like two drummers (including Muir) and Gavin, who plays like two drummers, it's strange to have Rieflin in the fold, considering he is comically restrained. In fact, at some points I thought he actually was there for some form of comic relief. Huge fill from Harrison! Huge fill from Pat! Rieflin ... taps a cymbal. He did play keys, I guess, and someone has to man the faux Mellotron, though I could have sworn Fripp did some of that, too.

Anyway, Levin (along with Pat) was the MVP, Fripp's solos were lunatic, Collins' return was largely welcome (though there is no place for soprano sax in "Red"). Jakko ... I would have preferred less of his stuff. He did a good job filling the gaps, I guess, handling utility player duties on guitar, vox and flute. I liked the setlist otherwise, so maybe "Scarcity of Miracles" is in there to give them a breather? He's no David Sylvian, though.

In the end I liked the 2008 edition of KC better, since they still played most of the rockin' stuff ("Red," "Larks II," "Level 5") and since Belew's enthusiasm was only matched this night by Pat, who is a nut, and Levin, who has fun playing anything. The rest of the band was so earnest, strict and ascetic. The irony of this line-up is that I think the Belew-era is still largely in line with Fripp's current/contemporary goals/philosophy, so taking him out of the picture robs the band of a more identifiable character. It was cool to hear the old stuff, but except for "Red" is was pretty much replicated like the old versions. And the new version of "Red" was kind of dud.

finally have a chance to listen to that Perfect Pair video sund4r linked. This is fucking great. Pretty good sound q too for what I assume is a vhs rip?

I hadn't seen them before admittedly. But I was a lot less blah about the show – in particular because I think this is the first time Fripp has really acknowledged the post ITCOCK/pre-LTIA band in a meaningful way. As much a fan of the 1973-4 band as I am (and am about to be more so w the LTIA box), I was genuinely excited about this as that era represents a pretty different aesthetic.

Oh, I agree. The show was by no means bleh. Just figured that fripp had moved on. He's not the nostalgic sort, and the show wasn't always a convincing meld of the then and now, IMO. Still cool!

hey, can any of you fanatics school me on the 30th anniversary remasters vs. the new (40th?) ones? My local store just got Starless, USA, and Discipline in used, and I am tempted. I only have them on vinyl.

(they got the 30th Anniv. remasters in, to be clear)

my understanding is Lizard = do not buy any former edition, demand the 40th anniv. The other 40th anniv I have heard nothing but good about but I think Lizard is the most revelatory?

30th pretty standard remasters. Sound cleaner, couple of bonus tracks. Newer 40th ones were (usually) remixed by Fripp and Steven Wilson, whose fresh ears/approach brings out some new stuff. Plus 5.1 mixes and a bunch of bonus stuff. Demos, rough mixes, live stuff.

I have some of the 30ths and they sound great to me, I only have Lizard in the 40th editions

Just got the LTIA box. On disc one, their first gig. Wow.

40th of Lizard and Islands are both really good, and whatever the most recent Court is also the one to get. I actually got the vinyl edition and it's amazing (I have flacs of the rest of that box though). 30th are fine for everything else to my ears; I've "heard" the 40ths and they're ok but they don't change my opinion about the music the way they did for Lizard. If you have surround though it's an entirely different animal (I don't bother with it).

the DGM web store breaks down what's on the 40th anniversary editions. There are a fair amount of them- the 80s albums for instance- that use the 30th anniversary remasters and add some bonus tracks.

thanks everyone, I will pick those up today

Correct me if I'm wrong, but to their credit none of the more recent sets replace old mixes with new ones, right? They generally include the original mix, Wilson/Fripp remixes, Wilson surround mixes and so on. Totally comprehensive, no rewriting of history.

The live discs, awesomely, are carefully mixed fusions of soundboards, bootlegs, etc. To get the best sound.

speaking of which, I clearly need that Absent Lovers thing y'all are raving about

Yeah, the 40th anniversary two-disc sets (I have Larks', Starless, Red and USA) have the new mix on the CD, and all previous mixes on the DVD, plus additional bonus tracks, video, etc. So if you want to listen to the original 70s LP mix, or any of the mixes that came after, it'll be there.

I think the ITCOCK box actually has a vinyl rip if you're so inclined. They've thought of everything

Just got the /LTIA/ box. On disc one, their first gig. Wow.

As a follow up...

Tons of live material with an ENORMOUS amount of free improvisation (not sure how "free" they were once Muir left) as well as some interesting avenues the material took as they woodshedded it.

A one-track session reel Wilson did of the band in the studio playing all the different parts and aspects of the songs, which is sort of like "Variations on a Theme By Robert Fripp and Friends..."

(Because they totally jam and go in different places than they did on the final record)

Alternate mixes by Wilson like a solo of Jamie Muir's percussion on "Easy Money" (which is fascinating but also hilarious) ...

And the packaging is excellent.

Fat harmonies on Sailor's Tale

So is there live w/Muir stuff on this box that actually sounds half decent? Bc the 2 kccc ones I have w muir are not v listenable.

Tons of live material with an ENORMOUS amount of free improvisation (not sure how "free" they were once Muir left) as well as some interesting avenues the material took as they woodshedded it.

Up until two days ago, I only knew Muir as the percussionist with the Music Improvisation Company, on their brilliant 1968-1971 CD (with Derek Bailey, Evan Parker, and Hugh Davies). That record was something I listened to daily about 20 years ago, and I always found Muir's playing enthralling.

A friend of mine insisted that I'd dig KC in general, and Larks' Tongues in particular. ITCOCK is great; I'm a sucker for anything with a Mellotron. But wow, LTIA is kind of blowing my mind.

Muir's finest hour imo, and I like those MIC records!

I want that mic cd!

cranking S&BB now, man that heavily-effected solo in "Lament" at around 2:50 is so fuckin heavy and badass

show in SF last night was great. I have a ticket for tonight but may sell it if I can; not sure it will top last night. bought a Red t-shirt from Fripp's sister who was handling merch; wondered if I should get M or L, she said "you have less of a tummy than some of these fans!"

arrangements were good, never thought I'd see Sailors Tale and Starless performed live. Rieflin does really hold back, he's barely a drummer; in bits where they'd trade off, beatles-the-end like solo-wise, it was actually kind of funny.

Does Fripp revisit that freaky aggressive zone from the studio version in "Sailor's Tale"?

I hope I get those tracks tonight!

They could have at least had Rieflin sing. What a weird career the guy has had. Ministry, Swans, KMFDM, REM, Robyn Hitchcock, King Crimson. I think Fripp just likes him personally. I mean, dag:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGj-MgNwLyE

Also, when he sings, he sings a bit like David Sylvian, so he could have really added something else to this current KC set, imo.