on the contrary if anything i think i should feel flattered as a man frequently covering female singers on pitchfork whose writing wasn't singled out in a piece about how pitchfork covers women poorly
― le goon (J0rdan S.), Thursday, 11 September 2014 16:38 (nine years ago) link
so it's big of you to instead offer a critique of her critique
― da croupier, Thursday, 11 September 2014 16:41 (nine years ago) link
Yeah, but then again there's someone like Robyn, who does not usually write/produce her own material yet always outshines her male collaborators and gets the press. I suspect this happens because she does not conform too easily to received notions of female beauty (don't get me wrong, she's beautiful and p hot to me but that's irrelevant). She comes across as pure subjectivity.
― longneck, Thursday, September 11, 2014 12:35 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
nah, it happens for two reasons:
- robyn generally gets judged by indie standards but pop standards, so she is pretty much seen as a step up in subjectivity by default;- robyn's collaborators are people like patrik berger and klas ahlund, whom basically nobody pays attention to.
― katherine, Thursday, 11 September 2014 16:41 (nine years ago) link
overall a really good piece that said a lot of shit that needed to be said; i think the ware/ocean examples weren't necessarily off base but she didn't really acknowledge the difference in gender expectations w/r/t different genres (i mean, opening that up would've necessitated triple the word length to untangle). i feel like the misogynistic trope of portraying r&b singers as mere vocal ciphers in the hands of their auteur producers is slightly different to the misogynistic trope of assuming, in a knife-style electronic/dance group, that the man does the production and the woman only sings.
first reduces the importance of the voice, the assumption is that the "genius" is in the production rather than what a (usually) highly-skilled vocalist brings to the song (and as longneck said, vocalists who bring *less* to the table in terms of technique will be disproportionately praised for that)
the second is kind of a product of tons of acts where this was the dynamic (that they presented) - thinking of lots of '90s trip-hop acts - combined with laziness in actually asking the band who does what, and at its grossest will be manifest in suspicion that female solo artists "must" have been helped in some way by a male producer
i'm not sure of the equation of vocal distortion/mangling/"not singing properly" as a means of disrupting this - one of many ways to disrupt it, perhaps? i feel it does women who do aim for "perfect" vocals a disservice
― lex pretend, Thursday, 11 September 2014 16:47 (nine years ago) link
man i've undoubtedly been guilty of this myself but every "male critic explains how female critic didn't quite accurately capture the sexism of male critics" post is megalolz
― da croupier, Thursday, 11 September 2014 16:51 (nine years ago) link
i am applauding the piece!
― lex pretend, Thursday, 11 September 2014 16:53 (nine years ago) link
you're definitely giving it constructive criticism
― da croupier, Thursday, 11 September 2014 16:54 (nine years ago) link
ok let's not discuss the very interesting issues it raises then, whatever
― lex pretend, Thursday, 11 September 2014 17:01 (nine years ago) link
Sexists have feelings too!
― longneck, Thursday, 11 September 2014 17:02 (nine years ago) link
was debating whether to say this but fuck it: as someone who has written for pitchfork about many of the artists mentioned upthread, this "you only quibble with it because you're a p4k bro and are CLOSING RANKS" line of questioning is a very bad look
― katherine, Thursday, 11 September 2014 17:03 (nine years ago) link
well then to be clear - i just find it funny when men respond to criticism of men by quibbling without the slightest bit of apparent introspection. this weird "oh no i totally agree sexism is a thing in men reviewing work by women but *reviews work by woman*"
― da croupier, Thursday, 11 September 2014 17:05 (nine years ago) link
i apologize for saying "pitchfork dude" initially cuz that's really a subset of what i'm describing
― da croupier, Thursday, 11 September 2014 17:06 (nine years ago) link
my point was not brand loyalty
― da croupier, Thursday, 11 September 2014 17:07 (nine years ago) link
...and you're picking on *Lex* for doing this, rather than some of the idiocy upthread from Brad and D-40? Come on.
― Shugazi (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 11 September 2014 17:07 (nine years ago) link
The article benefits from the fact vastly lower standards are demanded from music writers (particularly indie-leaning ones) as compared to -say- philosophy writers (and they get away with all kinds of lazy shit as a result).
― Twist of Caliphate (Bob Six), Thursday, 11 September 2014 17:09 (nine years ago) link
i am not leaving brad or d-40 out of this observation. if they were posting that stuff now my posts would immediately follow those instead of j0rdan's and lex's.
― da croupier, Thursday, 11 September 2014 17:09 (nine years ago) link
And we've got ILX's resident MRA spouting his ~opinions~ about the article all over the thread, too, and it's like, you're picking on one of the guys who has actually engaged the article and the topic all over ILM for years? I guess maybe it would have been better if you quoted, Croupier.
― Shugazi (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 11 September 2014 17:12 (nine years ago) link
i am not "quibbling". she opened up a massive and complex subject - really well - and there are necessarily other issues it raised that would not have fit in her word count.
― lex pretend, Thursday, 11 September 2014 17:13 (nine years ago) link
well no, because i don't want to leave lex OUT of what I'm describing. if you want to hand him a pass, fine.
― da croupier, Thursday, 11 September 2014 17:13 (nine years ago) link
xpost
I dunno; maybe we need a new thread for discussing the article. Or maybe I should just remove the bookmark from the thread until all of you go back to talking about LP1.
― Shugazi (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 11 September 2014 17:14 (nine years ago) link
who wants to talk about the queasy slowdown in the middle of "Video Girl" and how it evokes a sinking sensation in yr stomach that mimics a hypothetical feeling in twigs caused by having to deflect yet another query about whether she's the girl that's from the video?
― stacked as fuck & imposing (DJP), Thursday, 11 September 2014 17:15 (nine years ago) link
also i think in cases like this it would behove a lot of people to walk the talk and actually regularly rep for female artists in a non-misogynist way rather than treating it all as theory
(cf the iggy azalea argument: i have seen so many rap bros make the - accurate - point that black female rappers wouldn't be accepted in the way she is, with similar material. and yet none of them ever seem to actively rep for any black female rappers! strange.)
― lex pretend, Thursday, 11 September 2014 17:17 (nine years ago) link
(Yeah, like, I know I'm guilty of this, too, but it's just the way that every single thread about a prominent female artist turns into another discussion of How Male Critics Write About Female Artists and maybe we need a thread just specifically for that, so we can actually concentrate on discussing the music, because this is yet another thing male artists never have to put up with.)
― Shugazi (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 11 September 2014 17:17 (nine years ago) link
This record is a few times crappier than Grimes' Visions, tbh. I don't blike recs I'd rather talk abt than listen to rly
― sonic thedgehod (albvivertine), Thursday, 11 September 2014 17:23 (nine years ago) link
maybe if you didnt try to make your THIS ARTICLE 100% OTM case about an article that was maybe 80% OTM
lol @ croupier btw ... was honestly wondering which side he was going to come down on here, because there's no way he thinks this article is any more on point than anyone else
― rap steve gadd (D-40), Thursday, 11 September 2014 17:26 (nine years ago) link
lol @ the idea that im defensive of pfork bros writing about R&B though -__- if they want to clown jess harvell and ryan dombal have at it
― rap steve gadd (D-40), Thursday, 11 September 2014 17:27 (nine years ago) link
wait is that an 8.0 best new thinkpiece or just an 8.0
― da croupier, Thursday, 11 September 2014 17:27 (nine years ago) link
ouch! hey, i rate albums with those numbers!
― rap steve gadd (D-40), Thursday, 11 September 2014 17:28 (nine years ago) link
I'd disagree, given that this has basically been on endless repeat since it came out and I don't think I made it through the entirety of Visions once.
― stacked as fuck & imposing (DJP), Thursday, 11 September 2014 17:32 (nine years ago) link
This record reminds me of a lot of things but never Grimes
― Re-Make/Re-Model, Thursday, 11 September 2014 19:01 (nine years ago) link
i thought there was a pretty widespread understanding of this set of cultural associations of woman as "natural" and man as "technical" and the how that could be read through the various lenses that women in music, and culture in general, are refracted through. I feel like this is sortof basic post-popism. I also think that critiques along this line miss something about the way cultural artifacts actually circulate in generative ways that, due to their performative nature, don't enter so easily into the archive. I also wonder if anybody has written interestingly about archiving in relation to the pop music canon and the necessary capital conditions for maintaining archival material. This is obviously a topic with a huge discourse attached to it elsewhere but i don't really know much about music writing. I do really like grimes and i don't really know about the producers. I know who arca is. same with jessie ware, i think i was at a party that bashmore djed once.
― plax (ico), Thursday, 11 September 2014 22:43 (nine years ago) link
i bought a ticket to see kelela yesterday
― plax (ico), Thursday, 11 September 2014 22:46 (nine years ago) link
btw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4PQHpBhekE
― plax (ico), Thursday, 11 September 2014 23:10 (nine years ago) link
i meant to say i like twigs, i like one grimes song quite a lot
― plax (ico), Friday, 12 September 2014 00:23 (nine years ago) link
have not finished this yet
http://www.thefader.com/2014/09/12/popping-off-fka-twigs-beyonce-alt-r-and-b
― goole, Friday, 12 September 2014 19:19 (nine years ago) link
i finally got LP1 and i think i need to give it more time and attention. drifty floaty type music with skittery beats has never been my thing at all so i think i'll have an extra hurdle tbh
― goole, Friday, 12 September 2014 19:21 (nine years ago) link
I was with that article right up until the point where it referenced the quote used as the lyrics to "Preface" without actually mentioning that they were used in a song
― stacked as fuck & imposing (DJP), Friday, 12 September 2014 19:29 (nine years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XY5KTVA_2ys
― Van Horn Street, Wednesday, 17 September 2014 17:14 (nine years ago) link
pull out the incisorgive me two weeks you won't recognize her
^^^ I feel like you could do an entire dissertation on the context that transforms this into a sexy statement
― 💪😈⚠️ (DJP), Wednesday, 17 September 2014 19:26 (nine years ago) link
Uhh the Solve Sundsbo photo shoot for V Magazine? it is breathtaking
http://superselected.com/fka-twigs-is-a-sci-fi-heroine-for-v-magazine-by-solve-sundsbo/
― goon flambience (fgti), Wednesday, 17 September 2014 22:36 (nine years ago) link
Heard this album for the first time this week and this is an earworm. Didn't really grabbed me the first time but it has now become one of my favorite releases this year.
― Moka, Wednesday, 17 September 2014 23:17 (nine years ago) link
First listen it's like between Halfaxa and Visions, but without the joy of Visions. Exciting talent but like some others in here find the music sterile at times, other than Two Weeks.
― Raccoon Tanuki, Monday, 22 September 2014 16:55 (nine years ago) link
btw I think she is everything Grimes admires to be look and style wise
― Raccoon Tanuki, Monday, 22 September 2014 16:59 (nine years ago) link
ppl reaching for the grimes comparisons really have a small frame of reference even within the always-compare-women-to-women trope (that i'm probably falling into when i bring up vespertine as the closest comparison) (and this year, one of the few records doing a similar thing is probably the new cooly g one, though they *sound* very different)
― lex pretend, Monday, 22 September 2014 16:59 (nine years ago) link
urrrrr this album's about r-patz abort abort
― r|t|c, Monday, 22 September 2014 17:01 (nine years ago) link
wait there's a new Cooly G?
― 💪😈⚠️ (DJP), Monday, 22 September 2014 17:01 (nine years ago) link
urrrrr this album's about r-patz
Wait, for real?
― Johnny Fever, Monday, 22 September 2014 17:16 (nine years ago) link
Yes she wrote all the songs about him in advance of actually dating him because she had a premonition.
― Re-Make/Re-Model, Monday, 22 September 2014 17:28 (nine years ago) link
oh lol I didn't even know the two were dating now.
― Johnny Fever, Monday, 22 September 2014 17:35 (nine years ago) link