the scottish independence referendum

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not voting but i hope Sean Connery comes out of seclusion to comment on the result.

son of a lewd monk (Dr Morbius), Monday, 25 August 2014 21:11 (nine years ago) link

all the ppl I know who are voting are english and voting y

i'm in favour bcuz it holds promise & it's a blow to westminster

albion-derived names arguably more appropriate for what would be left of the uk

ogmor, Monday, 25 August 2014 21:15 (nine years ago) link

if they don't adopt the euro then they try to stay within the dominion of the ecb who determine monetary largely with reference to the southeast of england, or they have their own cool new currency and bond issue supporting a nordic public expenditure on an iberian gdp, there aren't any good choices

Nothing less than the Spirit of the Age (nakhchivan), Monday, 25 August 2014 21:16 (nine years ago) link

if u have your own country you need your own currency end of story

lag∞n, Monday, 25 August 2014 21:19 (nine years ago) link

Nope, the top half of the island is Alba, bottom half is Lloegr.

Shugazi (Branwell with an N), Monday, 25 August 2014 21:20 (nine years ago) link

supporting a nordic public expenditure on an iberian gdp is something theyre gonna have to worry about reguardless

lag∞n, Monday, 25 August 2014 21:20 (nine years ago) link

all the ppl I know who are voting are english and voting y

the english get a vote??

Mordy, Monday, 25 August 2014 21:22 (nine years ago) link

assuming english residing in scotland

lag∞n, Monday, 25 August 2014 21:23 (nine years ago) link

if u have your own country you need your own currency end of story

― lag∞n, Monday, 25 August 2014 22:19 (2 minutes ago)

yeah but lagz m8 that isnt current policy

Salmond believes that an independent Scotland should share the pound with the rest of the UK in a formal currency union that would see the Bank of England ­remain responsible for monetary policy. A currency union would also see Scotland would have the same exchange rate as the rest of the UK.

Nothing less than the Spirit of the Age (nakhchivan), Monday, 25 August 2014 21:25 (nine years ago) link

thats the scotsmans summary quoted so if it isnt correct blame the scotsman

Nothing less than the Spirit of the Age (nakhchivan), Monday, 25 August 2014 21:25 (nine years ago) link

well scotland isnt really a country right now as the rest of the world understands countries

lag∞n, Monday, 25 August 2014 21:26 (nine years ago) link

i guess my vote is non uk / y, why? bc the lolz

Mordy, Monday, 25 August 2014 21:32 (nine years ago) link

branwell as you may well know the oldest (latin&greek) uses of albion were referring to the island of great britain. idk how it came to refer just to scotland, possibly due to identification w/ persisting celtic population

suspect scotland will keep the pound one way or another

Under the terms of the 2010 Draft Bill, the following people would be entitled to vote in the referendum:[18]
British citizens who are resident in Scotland;
citizens of the 52 other Commonwealth countries who are resident in Scotland;
citizens of the 27 other European Union countries who are resident in Scotland;
members of the House of Lords who are resident in Scotland;
Service/Crown personnel serving in the UK or overseas in the British Armed Forces or with Her Majesty's Government who are registered to vote in Scotland.

ogmor, Monday, 25 August 2014 21:33 (nine years ago) link

Basically, people in Scotland.

Mark G, Monday, 25 August 2014 21:35 (nine years ago) link

not sure why "members of the House of Lords who are resident in Scotland" has its own mention, presumably being w/in the set of british citizen resident in scotland

ogmor, Monday, 25 August 2014 21:35 (nine years ago) link

am i right in assuming that british citizens residing in Scotland are more likely to vote against the ref in comparison to natives?

Mordy, Monday, 25 August 2014 21:37 (nine years ago) link

Yes the Albionii stayed in the top of the island, and the Sowsneks/Saesnegs/Sassenachs overran the bottom bit so they had to rename it to accommodate the bloody foreigners, why should they get to come over here and take our good, Celtic name for the island.

Shugazi (Branwell with an N), Monday, 25 August 2014 21:41 (nine years ago) link

albion-derived names arguably more appropriate for what would be left of the uk

― ogmor, Monday, 25 August 2014 22:15 (27 minutes ago)

this is tendentious rather than apodictic

the precedent of slovakia/slovenia and guinea/guinea bissau allows for countries in the same area to have similar names

albania (long form caledonia albania) in the north

albion (long form pete doherty's albion) in the south

Nothing less than the Spirit of the Age (nakhchivan), Monday, 25 August 2014 21:47 (nine years ago) link

lol I could smell the word sassenach in the air before it arrived. afaik it's v unclear where terms like albion or celts first recorded in greek&roman writings originated, whether they were self-ascribed, proudly claimed after the fact or w/e. the amount of population movement vs cultural assimilation is obv contentious in what happened to them. anyway scotland seems like a p solid name, but albion/the democratic republic of albion would be good trolling for the rest of the uk to deploy

ogmor, Monday, 25 August 2014 22:09 (nine years ago) link

Scotii were Fucken Irish bastards anyway. Call it Pictland, send the Sowsneks back to Saxony & be done with the whole mess.

Shugazi (Branwell with an N), Monday, 25 August 2014 22:17 (nine years ago) link

i thought i'd google up a vox article to get a rundown on the implications of the referendum. i generally have no time for them but this seems like something they'd be good at doing. unfortunately they haven't deemed it worthy of coverage yet.

Mordy, Monday, 25 August 2014 22:17 (nine years ago) link

I'm Scottish and fairly certain I'll be voting no. Unless there are some revelations to come.

I'll fully admit that I'm terrible at understanding political terminology. I don't think I'd be very good at examining the facts, figures and knowing what the reliable sources are. I just have to trust whoever sounds the smartest.

I've heard quite widely that the possible independent futures with the European Union, NATO and the currency are highly uncertain. The speculations about rising cost of living and economic disaster terrify me. Some have said that women voters are largely on the "no" side because they think more cautiously about future stability (for all I know maybe that is horseshit).
Some of the pro-independence promises about the possibilities sounded great but then there have been some further arguments to undermine that. Especially in regards to sustaining any of the good things in future decades.

The idea of SNP wanting to keep the monarchy is not encouraging. If I was confident Scotland could emulate the better Scandinavian countries I would vote yes easily.

I'm sure some of my friends will be angry about my position and they may well know Scottish people better than I do but I'm highly sceptical of the idea of Scotland being less bigoted than the rest of Britain. I'm scared of the isolationist mentality increasing. I'm quite worried about hearing stories of people with English accents being attacked.
The hideous patriotism and stories of "no" huts being set on fire are scary. But I've been told it's been very ugly on both sides.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Monday, 25 August 2014 22:19 (nine years ago) link

i should've known to go w/ the week

Mordy, Monday, 25 August 2014 22:20 (nine years ago) link

If I was confident Scotland could emulate the better Scandinavian countries I would vote yes easily.

This is my big problem with the ideological argument here. We aren't going to turn into a socialist utopia overnight. I would love it if we did. But come the 19th September we're still going to have bigotry and class distinction and all the other problems. This is a country where at the most recent opportunity we got ourselves a UKIP representative despite their minimal presence above the border. I'm seeing people in their teens and early twenties who didn't grow up knowing who Thatcher was (and so don't have that Tory-hate that seems ingrained in the national psyche), so when people say "Vote No Get Tory" I don't really think it's a valid argument - the values could easily sneak in by another name.

I am still undecided. I think better democracy could come from more localised, closer representation but there's still the problems of far too many politicians in Scotland coming from backgrounds of comparative affluence and privilege. The SNP will break up once the common goal is achieved and it's hard to predict what will happen then. Probably veering towards yes but there's just as many unanswered questions and unignorable issues on both sides.

boxedjoy, Monday, 25 August 2014 22:37 (nine years ago) link

the counterfactual seems to be the lost dream where scotland gots its independence before the uk turned to monetarism and before the better part of north sea oil revenues were accounted for, in which free scotland acquired a norway sized sovereign wealth fund and applied to a dirigist program of national re-education directed at its internal class/sectarian/regional factions in order to unify as free scotland under the scottish freedom krona

Nothing less than the Spirit of the Age (nakhchivan), Monday, 25 August 2014 22:40 (nine years ago) link

The option of more devolution hasn't been discussed widely enough.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Monday, 25 August 2014 22:43 (nine years ago) link

"devo max"?

TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Monday, 25 August 2014 22:56 (nine years ago) link

I'm pretty much in the dark about how tourism will be changed or the lives of people who regularly travel between Scotland and any other part of UK.
I don't know how important tourism is to the economy but I imagine that Scotland is only visited by a lot of people who are prioritizing a trip to England. Would it be more hassle to go to an independent Scotland for these people?

Will we still be using co.uk sites? Will we have the BBC?

Robert Adam Gilmour, Monday, 25 August 2014 23:00 (nine years ago) link

I don't really know what maximum devolution would do either.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Monday, 25 August 2014 23:01 (nine years ago) link

I heard our internet might be slower but I hope that was a sick joke.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Monday, 25 August 2014 23:03 (nine years ago) link

want Scotland to vote yes because a) hilarity and b) everybody in favour of "No" is a cunt

tragically not going to happen tho, clearly

Daphnis Celesta, Monday, 25 August 2014 23:04 (nine years ago) link

I just have to ask: Which are the 'better' Scandinavian countries, and which ones aren't?

Frederik B, Monday, 25 August 2014 23:44 (nine years ago) link

i'm not sure that's true. it's an increasingly real possibility. i've done a 180 on this in the past year and am now firmly in the yes camp. the only movements i have seen are towards a yes vote - virtually no one seems to be running the other way. I have regrets about it but basically - cameron + osborne + even worse on the horizon (ik,r?) = fuck this shit. scotland is really not like the bulk of the uk, socially.

i'm voting yes and i truly believe there will be a yes outcome.

the whole scotland = scandi thing is ridiculous though.

Acting Crazy (Instrumental) (jed_), Monday, 25 August 2014 23:56 (nine years ago) link

y

best thing i've read endorsing the yes vote: http://www.radicalphilosophy.com/commentary/yes

Merdeyeux, Monday, 25 August 2014 23:57 (nine years ago) link

I'm Scottish/Y. Not voting because I don't live there anymore. Nothing would make me prouder than YES winning this thing. My reasons are political - Scotland has never felt like it is controlled by the Scots, who have generally voted overwhelmingly against whichever government sits at Westminster. All the multitude of shit stuff about Scotland seems out of our control. Being independent would mean taking responsibility for all that.

everything, Monday, 25 August 2014 23:59 (nine years ago) link

i suppose it's a cynical thought but it seems to be true that the yes voters/those for change are significantly more likely to actually vote than those who simply want to retain the status quo.

i think this really could swing it.

although, thankfully, it looks like this will be the most highly attended vote in uk history.

Acting Crazy (Instrumental) (jed_), Tuesday, 26 August 2014 00:22 (nine years ago) link

quebec came within like one point of seceding from canada a while ago, wouldve been wild

lag∞n, Tuesday, 26 August 2014 00:26 (nine years ago) link

some of my neighbours seemingly still havent taken down the posters from then, there is still "non" graffiti (federalist) on the side of a building on my street.

all I can say is this stuff never goes away so I hope, whatever the outcome, it stays calm and people are able to reconcile themselves to the outcome.

fields of salmon, Tuesday, 26 August 2014 01:05 (nine years ago) link

american/y/very uninformed, but rly just in favor of the ongoing dismantling of English empire

heck (silby), Tuesday, 26 August 2014 01:35 (nine years ago) link

Merdeyeux- thanks for that article, I think I'm swaying closer to undecided now.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Tuesday, 26 August 2014 01:37 (nine years ago) link

that article is good on the left or at least non-nationalist case for secession

though it would be too optimistic to wish for england too lose its manifest destiny apologists and the constituency that thinks a 70 thousand tonne aircraft carrier is just the ticket in 2014, it would surely help to have their wings clipped

Nothing less than the Spirit of the Age (nakhchivan), Tuesday, 26 August 2014 01:41 (nine years ago) link

i can certainly understand the appeal but the yes campaign, like quebec before it, seems to be predicated on the wish that all the things people *like* will continue undisturbed, which isn't true

(not that a complete shakeup of the existing order lacks a draw, of course)

(no idea what exactly an independent scotland's claim on north sea oil money would be, but first nations ppl in northern quebec have their own idea about where hydro-quebec revenues should flow)

and you can peg your currency to the pound or the euro or the dollar, but that's a pretty half-assed sovereignty, and one with much less input than scotland currently has in the uk

mookieproof, Tuesday, 26 August 2014 02:29 (nine years ago) link

sovereignty in the era of the EU and the globalized economy is maybe something different than it once was. the 'No' campaign has consistently sought to portray independence as impossible, which is a straight lie imo.

Daphnis Celesta, Tuesday, 26 August 2014 08:47 (nine years ago) link

if some quirk of fate led to a vote for the city of Hull to secede from the Father of Imperialism i wd still vote Yes btw

Daphnis Celesta, Tuesday, 26 August 2014 08:49 (nine years ago) link

If there is a Yes will people in Eng be condemmed to a lifetime of Tories?

I know a "does it matter?" could be the ans to this.

xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 26 August 2014 10:16 (nine years ago) link

There have only been three elections since 1945 where the result in Scotland changed the government in Westminster at the general election. Twice it helped return Labour governments with tiny majorities rather than the hung parliament the result elsewhere would have meant (64, 74b). In 2010 it meant a hung parliament rather than a tiny Conservative minority.

treefell, Tuesday, 26 August 2014 10:25 (nine years ago) link

if i could vote i wouldn't because i would rather leave it to ppl who really care either way. i guess if compelled i would vote no, i do think the uk is marginally more than the sum of its parts. i don't see independence making much of a material change in the average scottish person's existence. the economic argument in favour of union seems more compelling. clearly things material or economic are not really the driving force anyway and you can't argue with ~feelings~.

i don't know the extent to which this is being talked about, but interesting subthemes for me are, the uk after scotland, which is suddenly v awkward, and along similar lines, i can't imagine your norn irish are super pleased by the prospect of scotland fucking off.

Roberto Spiralli, Tuesday, 26 August 2014 13:57 (nine years ago) link

It's dawned on me that everyone I know in Scotland is voting yes... apart from my mum, who isn't voting... and one friend who seems to be voting no out of sheer contrariness. Britain in 2014 is a morally bankrupt shithole, so I can understand voting yes, though nationalism makes me queasy and Scottish nationalism queasier still.

FYI Macedonia (Tom D.), Thursday, 28 August 2014 11:10 (nine years ago) link

One friend of mine, who I would never in a million years have described as a nationalist, just posted this on Facebook, that's the sort of thing that seems to be driving the people I know to vote yes... they'll still lose though.

FYI Macedonia (Tom D.), Thursday, 28 August 2014 11:18 (nine years ago) link

Most people I speak to are voting yes. I still think the NOs form a silent majority.

I misuse (onimo), Thursday, 28 August 2014 11:42 (nine years ago) link

But backstop. Alternative arrangements. Prosecco Buckfast

stet, Friday, 5 April 2019 16:24 (five years ago) link

post-indyref SNP developments on the currency question seem messy so far and a nascent source of division within the party.

did the cuts commission report go down like a bag of cold sick with the left of their membership?

... and the crowd said DESELECT THEM (||||||||), Friday, 5 April 2019 16:31 (five years ago) link

scene is set for a rammy at conference on currency

... and the crowd said DESELECT THEM (||||||||), Friday, 5 April 2019 16:32 (five years ago) link

xp. the growth commission was sort of just forgotten about because of how badly it went down with most of the base and how much of a gift it was to slab iirc

findom haddie (jim in vancouver), Friday, 5 April 2019 16:41 (five years ago) link

snp sort of remind one of new labour in their pomp. party democracy doesn't seem to be at the fore and so a restive left-wing base is kept subdued by a jupiterian, presidential leader and their technocratic allies

findom haddie (jim in vancouver), Friday, 5 April 2019 16:45 (five years ago) link

eight months pass...

Gonna need a constitutional crisis thread imminently. Also:

I word for no campaigners in Scotland. You’re wasting precious time arguing about mandates. Last referendum won by persuading centre left voters 1) EU membership only safe in UK 2) A progressive Labour gov was on the horizon 3) Currency and Economic security. 1/2

— Kezia Dugdale (@kezdugdale) December 15, 2019

stet, Sunday, 15 December 2019 13:09 (four years ago) link

eight months pass...

this was published on monday and support for scottish independence has since reached record levels https://t.co/mHIJDA5pdr

— LES MONUMENT (@wariotifo) August 19, 2020

calzino, Wednesday, 19 August 2020 23:43 (three years ago) link

"historian"

calzino, Wednesday, 19 August 2020 23:46 (three years ago) link

absolute wank of a man.

Temporary Erogenous Zone (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 19 August 2020 23:49 (three years ago) link

if that is the one of the best they can find to fight in their propaganda battle for the continuation of the UK, then they are truly fucked! It's Bob Geldoff/Eddie Izzard/Alistair Darling campaigning for remain dismal.

calzino, Thursday, 20 August 2020 00:01 (three years ago) link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoOfXUZj4gM

Gerneten-flüken cake (jed_), Thursday, 20 August 2020 00:07 (three years ago) link

I honestly can’t wait for Scotland to join the EU, the two Ireland’s reunite, and the British empire finally be distilled to just England and Wales

beamish13, Thursday, 20 August 2020 01:08 (three years ago) link

Theres only 1 ireland pal

Temporary Erogenous Zone (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 20 August 2020 01:24 (three years ago) link

five months pass...

The worst thing about this tweet?

For 5 years, the government's own experts have told them that every Brexit scenario will make the British people poorer, and the only time they're willing to admit that, is when it can be used for political advantage to threaten Scotland. https://t.co/G483i62FgM

— Femi😷 (@Femi_Sorry) February 5, 2021

Heavy Messages (jed_), Friday, 5 February 2021 18:02 (three years ago) link

one year passes...

here we fucking go

boxedjoy, Tuesday, 28 June 2022 19:25 (one year ago) link

It’s going to pass this time isn’t it?

Osama bin Chinese (gyac), Tuesday, 28 June 2022 19:32 (one year ago) link

it’ll pass 52/48 in favour and the tories will say it’s too narrow a margin to allow it to happen

balsamic vaccinegar of moderna (bizarro gazzara), Tuesday, 28 June 2022 19:40 (one year ago) link

if it doesn't pass this time then it will be disastrous, in so many ways. I'm still not convinced one way or another for various reasons but I kinda want it to happen because the alternative timeline for both Scotland and the UK is cataclysmic

boxedjoy, Tuesday, 28 June 2022 19:44 (one year ago) link

I wouldn't put money on it tbh. I can't imagine what state the economy and the world at large will be by Oct 2023.

Eavis Has Left the Building (Tom D.), Tuesday, 28 June 2022 19:50 (one year ago) link

looking forward to seeing Gordon Brown out on the big stage again where he belongs

bury my heart in wounded kieth (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 28 June 2022 20:00 (one year ago) link

Nothing is certain but the yoon argument has taken a ton of damage since the first referendum - Brexit alone must be worth at least 10% to yes. I am saying this mindful of the various caveats about the reality of indyScot but the last eight years haven’t exactly been “we’re so glad you stayed”.

Osama bin Chinese (gyac), Tuesday, 28 June 2022 20:03 (one year ago) link

the Scottish Government is currently taking control over the administration of the benefits system and has made a deliberate and real committment to treating claimants better than DWP. If the roll-out is a success it's going to have a huge impact. Plus, Brexit.

the flipside is that, you only need to spend a day in Sturgeon's own constituency to see the kind of thing that turns voters off - poor housing, fly-tipping and litter, rampant effects of drug use. I live here and I like it, but when you've had to call the council to put down traps for rats in the communal bin area shared by six tenenment blocks, you do have to ask if things are going as well as they possibly could.

boxedjoy, Tuesday, 28 June 2022 20:11 (one year ago) link

going to be interesting to see

* are the tories going to try to declare it illegitimate? surely this couldn't be another catalonia, but then what?
* what kind of remain campaign can be mounted if the vote isn't supported by national parties?
* will there just be a spoiler boycott in order to undermine legitimacy?

Portrait Of A Dissolvi Ng Drea M (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Tuesday, 28 June 2022 20:13 (one year ago) link

My timeline already full of "just go away, we're subsidising you ungrateful and we don't want you" guys, who all seem to have changed their tune from the unionist tune they were all dancing to in 2014 insisting we had to stay for, um, reasons.

I think for it to be successful it has to be made very clear to idiots like, say, my mum, that the SNP don't have to be the party in government of an independent Scotland. She hated Salmond and hates Sturgeon (despite all the free prescriptions and the free buses and the forthcoming free education her grandson will benefit from, to pick three examples) and even hating the Tories won't convince her to cut Scotland adrift of Westminster because boo SNP bad (c) BBC Scotland and the Scottish Daily Mail.

ailsa, Wednesday, 29 June 2022 07:59 (one year ago) link

I'm an indy supporter but I'm really not sure if this is the right time. It doesn't feel to me like there's much demand for a second referendum right now, what with how wild everything's been over the last few years

paolo, Wednesday, 29 June 2022 07:59 (one year ago) link

I've seen people argue that Brexit might actually put voters off voting for Scottish independence, that all the chaos and disruption of leaving the EU will make voters worry that leaving the UK would be equally (or even more) fraught, as well as the fact that an independent Scotland would have to rejoin the EU rather than automatically remaining a member. Does this seem credible to people more in-the-know than me, or is desire to rejoin the EU/resentment of being pulled out of the EU by England the more significant factor?

soref, Wednesday, 29 June 2022 08:14 (one year ago) link

I don't think Scottish (re)accession to the EU will necessarily be straightforward, given Spanish thoughts about the precedent it would set for Catalonia

Critique of the Goth Programme (Neil S), Wednesday, 29 June 2022 08:49 (one year ago) link

whether that is something that Scottish voters will take into account ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Critique of the Goth Programme (Neil S), Wednesday, 29 June 2022 08:52 (one year ago) link

If only Russia could be persuaded to invade Scotland.

Eavis Has Left the Building (Tom D.), Wednesday, 29 June 2022 09:06 (one year ago) link

xxxp I think that worry about the disruption of leaving the UK and wanting to join the EU probably cancel each other out. That's just a personal feeling, I don't have any data to back that up

paolo, Wednesday, 29 June 2022 09:58 (one year ago) link

I remember in 2014 Salmond insisting that negotiating Scotland's exit from the UK would be very straightforward, both Scotland and the rump UK would have a shared interest coming to an agreement everyone was happy with etc, which seemed implausible at the time and is even more unconvincing after Brexit.

soref, Wednesday, 29 June 2022 10:15 (one year ago) link

Ironically probably a better chance of negotiation with any other government than this one

bury my heart in wounded kieth (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 29 June 2022 11:16 (one year ago) link

yesterday I heard the most important issue being brought up on PM: Would ppl from rump UK to be able to take their dogs with them into an independent Scotland without any nonsense like when they take them to France these days. The posh as fuck English people that take their dogs with them on holiday lobby deserve to have their say on Scotland's future as well!

calzino, Wednesday, 29 June 2022 11:39 (one year ago) link


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