ATTN: Copyeditors and Grammar Fiends

This thread always fills me with surprice.

"I couldn't resist talking about it."

I agree with Mr Smith. If you can replace the -ing word with a noun then it's probably a gerund (e.g. "I couldn't resist the chocolate cake").

I suggest looking at a map. 'Southern central' is not the same as 'central southern', obviously.

Yes. But would either of those (depending) be better than south central, or south-central? This started out as a hyphenation query, really.

My personal preference would be for 'southern central' or 'central southern', depending on the actual geographical location. For some reason the hyphenated 'north-west' or 'south-west' doesn't carry over well to anything involving 'central'. Maybe that's just me, and/or a British vs American bias. It's also a lot to do with me not knowing what it means, ie I'm not sure if 'south-central' is supposed to mean 'in the southern portion of the central region', or 'somewhere broadly within the larger central AND southern region' (the latter being analagous to 'north-west' or 'south-east' etc.).

'Southern central' is not the same as 'central southern', obviously.

haha these things would be separated by "northern southern?"

Many guests on Mr. Letterman’s show, notably Julia Roberts, have tweaked him about his reluctance to marry. Mr. Letterman had sworn off marriage after he and his first wife Michelle Cook, were divorced in 1977.

From the NY Times no less. Tsk.

the comma right? im sick as fuck the rest seems ok

Is it

fish ‘n’ chips

or

fish ’n’ chips

? (note open/close quotes)

or

fish ‘n‘ chips

not that one.

s/b fish ’n’ chips -- each represents contraction of letter(s)

gone fish'n'

mare's tails or mares' tails? (when referring to the cloud formation)

mare's tails because you're pluralizing the phrase mare's tail, not pluralizing the mare.

Good question. Webster's 11th lists both as acceptable.

thanks

Does people still care about the difference between further and farther? Hadn't even thought about it until the word farther came up in a children's book, looking all weird.

http://www.lessontutor.com/eesfarther.html

DO people.

Grief.

Hmm, farther does look a little odd now you mention it, and I certainly wouldn't use it in the metaphorical sense, whereas further works fine in the literal sense.

To give a bit of context, I am analysing a book used to teach Science - in English - to Spanish children (who are simultaneously learning English).

Says: "As you move farther away from a vibrating object, the sound waves become weaker... If you move farther away, the waves will become weaker and the sound will become softer."

It doesn't really matter, since the most important thing is the kids get the gist of the science DESPITE the language difficulties. Still, looks weird and I wonder if I should learn the rule for use in formal writing or whether mere knowledge of it will bug me forever, as does the less/fewer rule.

Are there opinions on "toward" and "towards"? AP maintains that "towards" is "not a word" IIRC.

I see that one as a whilst/while kind of situation. The former supposedly sounds more formal but to my mind it's just an affectation.

i always use "toward," and just see "towards" as a bastardization of "toward"

also, i think "farther" should be used to express physical distance, so those sentences seem ok to me. "futher" is a metaphorical thing, ie to "further one's education"

Towards is UK usage, but frowned upon in the States. A bit like "firstly"

Firstestershire

I would like dual nationality so I can use both firstly AND oftentimes. How I love oftentimes.

I'd say that in Britain 'farther' is hardly used and 'further' just covers all those meanings.

xp

zoe espera, it sounds like you had the same job i had in spain for two years... auxiliar de conversación...?

Yep, that would be me. Auxiliar in the bilingual programme in Madrid. Where roughly were you? And did you like it? I'm on line 9 in the South East.

Have to say, I've learnt probably as much about English and English grammar as I did when I was a journalist (if not more).

And, I'm not sure if drumming grammar into kids' heads is always the best way. Just masses of exposure to another language seems to be the way. Could really do with some sort of basic text on bilingual learning, if anyone can recommend one...

ZE, I'm sure I've mentioned this before, but the Oxford Language Toolkit will probably be a great help. I've never been entirely sure who it's aimed at -- I get the impression it's non-native fluent English speakers -- but it's cleared up many a messy grammar fight at work.

Hope all is good out there. You likely to be back on these shores at any point soon?

Ah yes! You've mentioned that to me before and I've totally ignored you! How immensely rude.

All the same I'm still on the look out for research on bilingual learning/teaching.

Things are very good and, yes, I'll be BACK (at least in London) at the end of June and defo further north at some point before October. You will informed, course. Hi to all!

I've bought the toolkit. Cheers!

Superb. Hope you find it as useful as I have!

Keep me posted about ceremonial visits etc and I shall roll out the red carpet ;)

looking at adjective order and comma usage...is the (only) rule that you use commas when trad adjective order is broken? like:

my dear old dad
vs
my old, dear dad
?

i guess as well there's smthg like: if changing the order of the words would change the sense of the phrase then you don't use a comma? is that right? are there any other instances where you'd/not use a comma which can be explained by a rule?

(that last question just in the context of a series of adjectives)

I don't think that's so much of a "rule" as an expressive choice you get to make in the moment. The comma between adjectives gets omitted mostly in instances where the phrase feels comfortable or natural as it is, comfortable and natural enough that the comma feels somehow fussy; the example above seems more like an example of that than anything about adjective order in general.

Is there a difference when one adjective is modifying the following adjective as opposed to just being another modifier of the noun?

I mean, we could probably make a list of common adjectives that tend not to take that comma -- adjectives like "big" and "old" and colors -- but in the end I think it's just a subjective and socially informed choice depending on stuff like the tone you want.

xpost - not sure exactly what you're envisioning there, S, but yeah, the comma would theoretically drop

xp e.g. boring, bitter man vs. boring bitter man

Would you punctuate differently if the phrase was describing the man as boring and bitter, or if it was describing one of two bitter men, only one of whom was boring?

the second only if talking about a man who likes to drink bitter (as in, "Me, I'm a bitter man.")

Oh, S, that's almost more of a restrictive/non-restrictive issue -- yeah, you'd drop the comma if you meant the latter, the same as you'd say "the tall man on the left" (to distinguish) and "the tall man, on the left" (to describe). It'd be a risky way of differentiating in that case, though! (Ha: some people might even italicize "boring" to be clear.)

For the record, for expressive/literary or informal or fast-paced writing, I'm pretty fond with the way you can drop loads of this particular comma and describe, say, "the big white looming high-towered mansion at the end of the block" -- the commas are definitely a more formal concern -- but even that example is based on having a manageable string of adjectives that's still clear and feels natural in a rush.

thanks, nabisco. it's tough because i'm helping non-native speakers, so they won't have that intuitive sense of when it should be used, hence my looking for hard and fast rules. they're going to be memorizing from a chart, basically, so that you usu use adjectives in the same order, based on type (opinion -> size -> age -> shape -> color, etc.). from what i've read, it seems like you need to use a comma if you're rearranging those types for some reason, barring some weird exception.

xpost - "There were two bitter men in the corner, one of whom was interesting and one of whom was boring. The interesting bitter man was telling a story; the boring bitter man was staring off into space."

xpost - yeah, Rent, I think rearrangement can make you want the comma because the order can become unusual and not have that natural flow. Would it really be so bad for them to just be taught that, say, a couple basic adjectives together don't need the comma, but more or more complex words do? I'm trying to compare to being an English-speaker learning something like French, where certain simple adjectives come before nouns, but most adjectives do not; you just have to pick up a sense of which are which.

use adjectives in the same order, based on type (opinion -> size -> age -> shape -> color, etc.).

Is that true? Is "white 16 year-old boy" incorrect? "16 year-old white boy" sounds kinda derogatory.

xxp maybe a good rule of thumb is to not use a comma if the adjectives have only one syllable.

dear old dad vs. beloved, antiquated dad

i think age more as in you'd say the old white man & not the white old man, unless his whiteness was the particularly relevant?

new green building
green new building

xp rent: to me, it seems like the order would be dependent on the context.

I always think of this example: "big brown paper bag."

Are you describing a) a brown paper bag that happens to be big, b) a paper bag that is both big and brown, or c) a bag that is big, brown, and made of paper?

There may not be an obvious answer to that question, but it should dictate in a general sense whether you should use commas and where.

ooo, yeah, that's good