Rolling Music Theory Thread

Here is link to review of Allan F. Moore book I mentioned briefly upthread and was glancing at today, mainly the capsule history of pop music in the fifth chapter, which is called "Style" and is pretty interesting although obviously one may disagree with some of his judgements or interpretations and this phrase seems to be a gaffe "(James) Brown's obsession with accenting the second beat"
http://www.mtosmt.org/issues/mto.13.19.4/mto.13.19.4.endrinal.php

first example that springs to mind is "Cold Sweat"

Good point, crüt. But the title of his biography is The One, not The Two, and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncOfAoDQbQk

"I'm Free" off of Tommy seems to have a metrical fakeout. What seems to be the one is the AND of four leading to the one, I think. When vocals kick in it they seem to be a half a beat late because of this. You can also notice a difference between the relationship of the other parts and the piano. During the intro the piano *seems* to be syncopated but when the figure repeats it lines up. Do u see?

Is this thread dead?

If not, I wanted to ask something about "(Don't Fear) The Reaper." I guess I could on the other thread but thought might fit better here.

May end up doing so anyway.

*hear that lonesome whistle whine*

James Redd and the Blecchs, just asking to ask

ask it, I won't understand some of the terms but I want to learn

What was your question, JR & tB? Tbh, it's a stretch for me to do non-career-related theory work right now but I might be able to help if it's something I could answer off the bat or come back to in a while. I love the song so I'm curious to hear what the question was.

Not really a theory question per as, more some questions or comments for those that post on the theory thread such as yourself.

1) It's kind of amazing that this simple little songwriting trick, creating a pattern based on keeping a melody note, the G here, constant over changing chords can be so effective in creating a memorable riff, especially such a common chord sequence. Or maybe it is not amazing at all, everybody should try it. Or maybe everybody does try it and a reasonable number succeed.

2) I have a hard time hearing what the riff actually is and separating from other guitar arpeggiating the chord triads.

3) In the bridge/breakdown, seems like he is playing that particular pattern five times, then six times, then I get lost, when the other instruments come in, although I might have thought it would help keep count. Maybe the beat gets displaced an eight note or something need to listen again.

Unless 2) is actually the same guitar playing all of it

I guess none of that is really a question. Unless the question is: do you see?

I haven't looked at the bridge yet but:

1) We've discussed the use of pedal points like this before, surely? One interesting recent example imo is Taylor Swift's "Love Story", where D (^1) and E (^2!) become a double pedal point over a variant of the I-V-vi-IV progression in D.

2) I think it's just one guitar? It's pretty easy to play on one guitar. From a scan, it looks like Dharma is playing it all here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdXfkkyI1nQ

"Love Story"

Also a "Romeo and Juliet" song

Yes, we've discussed pedal points before. Guess this is just another example.

Okay, one guitar. Still doesn't quite sound right to me if I play it on acoustic, don't have an electric, presumably because of the sustain.

Although maybe I am blaming instrument for my own butterfingers accidentally touching string and cutting off sound.

Recently learned that Sandy Pearlman assigned nicknames to all of them but only Buck Dharma stuck.

You can fake it by shifting A5-G5-F5-G5 under a pedal on open G.

:P

1) It's kind of amazing that this simple little songwriting trick, creating a pattern based on keeping a melody note, the G here, constant over changing chords can be so effective in creating a memorable riff, especially such a common chord sequence. Or maybe it is not amazing at all, everybody should try it. Or maybe everybody does try it and a reasonable number succeed.
---

now that you're mentioning this, it occurs to me that what's kind of neat about the "G" is that it is used both as a pedal point and a note that "anticipates" the G chord when the progression goes from Am to G and from F to G (since the G is always the last note before the chord changes).

Yeah, that's a good point.

http://open.spotify.com/user/bartonlewis/playlist/7gXeNaftfJnwNVHQDiZ1Zs

Wrote on "Running Scared" and "In Dreams"

http://thisiheard.blogspot.com/2014/11/roy-orbison-running-scared-1961.html

Hey, thanks - I read some stuff on your blog a while back but forgot where so never found my back back. Love this kind of stuff.

The modulation up in the Eagles' "New Kid in Town" - not a half step up, not a whole step up, but a full minor third. How do they do it? By means of a borrowed iv chord used as a ii chord in the new key.

Thanks, will check it out.

Modulates back, too.

That my axioms and my late beloved father's are anti-Rameau you can state quite openly.
-C. P. E. Bach in a letter to Kirnberger

*Revive*

For the seasonal analysis of Yuletide modalities.

Oh wait, think there is already a thread for that which is better left unrevived. Never mind.

The First Noel, "most likely from the 18th century"

"Unusual among English folk melodies in that it consists of one musical phrase repeated twice, followed by a refrain which is a variation on that phrase"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_First_Noel

Interesting.

Had not known this:

In 1855, English musician William H. Cummings adapted Felix Mendelssohn's secular music from Festgesang to fit the lyrics of "Hark! The Herald Angels Sing" written by Charles Wesley.

Just eight years after Mendelssohn's death. He was popular in England.

"One of Us Must Know (Sooner or Later)":

"And I told you as you clawed out my eyes/That I never really meant to do you any HAAAAAAAAA-a-arm"

That's the third scale degree he's singing over a IV chord.

You guys, "Different Worlds" by Maureen McGovern (theme song to the TV show Angie) has that same sequence of chords at the beginning of the verse as "Yesterday."

I - V/V/vi - V/vi - vi

The changes are the same, but the second chord is minor in both -- I ii/vi V/vi vi

Aha! Thanks, St3ve.

I like that you call it a two of six because that progression totally does suggest a two-five-one except that the last chord is minor.

Hm, yeah I wouldn't say ii V i progressions in minor keys are unusual though. See e.g. this page on the minor ii V i. In a jazz context you'd more often see a half-diminished7 on the ii chord (aka m7b5), but the regular m7 chord seen in these songs can be made by borrowing from the melodic minor scale.

But that's one of the cool things about that tune, the way it starts on the major tonic as you expect, then takes a surprising detour to what ends up being a very strong setup for the vi chord, which at least in Yesterday ends up kind of fighting for the spotlight through the whole song.

But hmm again, Alan W. Pollack calls the 2nd chord ii/vi but he says it's Edim. I always heard Em7 there.

In a jazz context you'd more often see a half-diminished7 on the ii chord (aka m7b5)
While you are at it, the V chord often has a b9.

Looks likes a minor chord here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjpzTys0s9g

Since this thread popped up, I have a classical music question that arose listening to a lot of Beethoven symphonies lately -- is there a standard name for the technique of rhythmic displacement he often uses where he will move a melody entirely to either accented upbeats or accented weak beats so that it feels almost like the pulse has momentarily shifted? I noticed this is the 1st movement of #4, for example.

Wish I knew.

I have been learning some classical guitar etudes with lots of open strings, sometimes in drop D, with some fretted notes, two notes, triads, seventh chord shapes, shapes that don't really parse at all. Most of the chords will come from D, say, or the modal mix of D, but some will just be really dissonant, for instance,just playing a triad a half step away from the one in the key. Wondering what if there any is the classical terminology for this kind of thing, tried some jazz terms, sideslipping, planing, modal, nonfunctional, but nothing quite feels right.

Examples?

Do you want youtubes? Sheet music?

If they are well-known or easily-available pieces, references to scores would be be easiest (e.g. mm. x-y in ....). Otherwise, if you could link the score or Youtube, I could take a look.

You guys, what is the second chord in the verse of this song? It has a flat seventh in it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bmhuqOpV5g

Flat seven scale degree, I mean.