The Great ILX Gun Control Debate

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Re: "if a much more strict process for acquiring a gun was introduced (similar to what was detailed above), and that process would surely save lives in the long run (the crimes of passion/murders we've been talking about), would you still oppose those changes on principle?"

Don't we kind of have to talk in abstractions about this kind of thing? I can give you stats (you know, the "Keeping a gun in the home makes it 2.7 times more likely that someone will be a victim of homicide in your home (in almost all cases the victim is either related to or intimately acquainted with the murderer) and 4.8 times more likely that someone will commit suicide" kind of thing) *Source / New England Journal of Medicine) - but I imagine you have NRA-friendly rebuttal stats of your own.

― Ben Boyerrr, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:21 (seventeen years ago) link

and I feel no compunction to be polite or apologize for talking shit about Manalishi who's made it fairly clear he's more interested in ad hominems and showing us what a hard-nosed realist he is than actually having any kind of intelligent discussion

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:21 (seventeen years ago) link

My guess is that in concealed carry permit states, for every prevented crime you have at least three dozen "Oh yeah, fuckface, well how about THIS! You're not talking so big now, are you?!" And I'd be curious how many shootings the latter leads to.

― Hurting 2, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:22 (seventeen years ago) link

I mean if the "hey everybody's let's be cool, we're just talking about keeping a few handguns around the house" crowd gets to say that the anti-gunners are really just living in a fear bred through ignorance (which may be true in some circles, but a quick look around here says otherwise), it's at least fair to wonder if the self-defense contingent of the pro-handgun crew are living in optimism bred through ignorance of their (non-)ability to actually use their handguns the way they think they will, when confronted with a crazy person or hardened criminal who is pointing a gun at them. Like lauren, I too have had guns pointed at me, and having a gun of my own would have improved the situation exactly 0, and in fact would have drastically increased the chances of violence and bloodshed.* The "peace of mind" argument strongly feels like delusional wishful thinking on the part of people who have never actually been in the sights of someone who threatened to shoot them.

* Without going into detail too much, at the police station after one of these events, the guy who owned the supermarket I was briefly in with said gun-wielding maniac, said "man, you should have told me! I always got a gun right here!" and slapped his ankle. "I woulda taken him out BOOM BOOM" and I was like "yeah, that's sort of why I didn't say anything to you."

― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:23 (seventeen years ago) link

So when you ultimately hear that this kid in VA got his gun legally (after your celebratory 'I told you so' following the word that the serial number was filed off... um, XX), does any part of you pause at all to think that maybe some kind of tougher sanctions/process could have kept this from happening?

― Ben Boyerrr, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:28 (seventeen years ago) link

Manalishi, how do you feel about it being mandated that guns are kept in a locked steel cupboard, of a certain standard, affixed to the fabric of the building and that ammo is kept in a separate case of a similar standard?

Because that would seem like a sensible precaution against children or, say, an intruder getting hold of your guns?

― Ed, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:30 (seventeen years ago) link

when do you take the guns and ammo out of the locked steel cupboards? just before you sit down in the armchair for your shift as lookout or when you hear the first unusual sound in the dark?

― RJG, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:47 (seventeen years ago) link

When you want to do something less daft than home defence with a gun like going hunting.

― Ed, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:50 (seventeen years ago) link

doubt that'll appeal much to roger adultery's aesthetics

― RJG, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:51 (seventeen years ago) link

Yeah, given that Manalishi's point rests more on being able to defend your home than being able to go hunting, having to keep your guns and ammo separate isn't likely to appeal.

(and, given Manalishi, surely anything to do with guns being mandated isn't likely to appeal)

― c sharp major, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:55 (seventeen years ago) link

the guy who owned the supermarket I was briefly in with said gun-wielding maniac, said "man, you should have told me! I always got a gun right here!" and slapped his ankle. "I woulda taken him out BOOM BOOM" and I was like "yeah, that's sort of why I didn't say anything to you."

nothing saves lives like a shootout in a store full of people.

― lauren, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:56 (seventeen years ago) link

Another point of clarification - taking a driver's test is not necessary for the ownership of a car, it's needed in order to operate a motor vehicle. The requirements mentioned above (training, renewal, etc.) are already in place for the perceived equivalent for gun owners (conceal/carry), and are in fact quite stringent. If you are trying to argue for ownership licensure with the same stringent requirements, Driver's licenses really aren't a functional analogue.

Again, I'm mostly trying to stay out of this because the level of hysterics on both sides make me uncomfortable, but I thought I'd throw that in.

― John Justen, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:59 (seventeen years ago) link

wait... jaymc's uncle built his own CANNON?

― lauren, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:00 (seventeen years ago) link

It's not that hard to do, really. Get some PVC pipe, a lantern igniter, some hairspray, and a potato and you can go to town.

― kingfish, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:02 (seventeen years ago) link

JJ doesn't that usually go hand-in-hand with regular vehicle inspection and mandatory insurance, though? I know it varies a bit from state to state but in order to keep driving your car you have to have insurance, registration, title, and the sign-off from a licensed garage that your car is safe to drive, right? Having the same things for guns shouldn't cause the 99% of peaceful, law-abiding gun owners too much bother I wouldn't think.

― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:04 (seventeen years ago) link

wiring the lighter correctly in the chamber is a pain in the ass, though

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:04 (seventeen years ago) link

And, while Manalishi has been a bit, uh, "strident," I am a little weirded out by how quickly everyone else has been to assume that he's a mouth-breather with a jones to shoot some fucking burglars. Yeah, the "cold dead hands" stuff is a little whacked, but seriously? You guys are very quick to assume that he's got a boner for some killing.

Most of the people doing this have spoken to Manalishi aka Roger Adultery aka Roger Fidelity before and are reacting to more than just his words on this thread.

― HI DERE, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:07 (seventeen years ago) link

i get the feeling that jaymc's uncle did more than rig up a contraption to fire a potato out of a tube, but who knows.

― lauren, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:11 (seventeen years ago) link

Yes, to keep driving your car, you need all (or most, depending on the state) of these things. The reason for that is that you are taking your car into public and interacting with other people who have a right to be safe. The point I'm making is that the majority of gun owners rarely fire their guns (in some cases, not at all), and do not do so in public spaces. The comparable situation with guns is conceal/carry, which requires rigorous vetting and obligatory training.

xxpost

― John Justen, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:12 (seventeen years ago) link

also, i wish i had that info when i still had roof access and a condo with terraces full of braying yuppies behind my building.

xpost

― lauren, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:13 (seventeen years ago) link

not to get all .xls but i think roger adultery and roger fidelity were 2 different guys

― and what, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:15 (seventeen years ago) link

I didn't think so

― RJG, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:16 (seventeen years ago) link

Yeah, that igniter thing suuuucks. My dad would stand out on the back deck and fire it onto the neighboring golf course, getting a good few hundred yards of range, laughing all the while.

I wonder whatever happened to that thing, anyway.

― kingfish, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:18 (seventeen years ago) link

John 8080, BTW.

― HI DERE, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:20 (seventeen years ago) link

Most of the people doing this have spoken to Manalishi aka Roger Adultery aka Roger Fidelity before and are reacting to more than just his words on this thread.

You mean shit like calling the Virginia Tech shooter a "borderline mongoloid" in the other thread?

And no, Fidelty/Adultery are the same dude.

― Ben Boyerrr, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:22 (seventeen years ago) link

I like using a tennis ball and spraying it liberally with the aqua velva before loading, then you get a spinning fireball, the potato gun answer to tracer ammunition

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:22 (seventeen years ago) link

I stopped reading the other thread; I'm talking solely about the way people are treating RF.

SNAP: TOMBOT, what about the resulting paste?

― HI DERE, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:23 (seventeen years ago) link

sweet, i hadn't heard of that one. That'd be good for 4th of July fun. What kind of range do you get with that?

― kingfish, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:24 (seventeen years ago) link

http://oliverkamm.typepad.com/blog/2007/04/gun_debates_aga.html

― caek, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:27 (seventeen years ago) link

I really don't get this constant reassurance that gun-averse people would be more comfortable with guns if they just dealt with them a bit. Seriously: what in the world would someone like me gain from that? I don't have any interest[ in being comfortable with gun use! I don't ever intend to use one! The chances of a situation developing where I would want to use one -- like some kind of murderous bank holdup where an injured cop falls next to me, gun in hand, and OMG here's my chance to take the shot and save everyone -- not really something I expect to happen! And if someone pulls a gun on me, I think my gun-aversion will be pretty much situation-appropriate! So sure, I could go to a firing range, or take a gun-safety course, and get totally comfortable with them, but it would be largely pointless and make zero difference in my life, including in my level of trust in other people's gun-handling and gun-ownership. It's just ridiculous to imagine that being able to handle them oneself will make a person more comfortable with how common they are; there's no level of comfort you're going to achieve on the firing range that's going to make it so that lives don't end when people shoot one another.

So I dunno, a lot of the comfort stuff seems to me like the equivalent of saying "well if you just had sex with enough corpses, you'd get used to it, and be comfortable with a society in which everyone has sex with corpses."

― nabisco, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:37 (seventeen years ago) link

I really don't get this constant reassurance that black person-averse people would be more comfortable with black people if they just dealt with them a bit. Seriously: what in the world would someone like me gain from that? I don't have any interest in being comfortable with black people! I don't ever intend to interact with one! The chances of a situation developing where I would want to talk to one -- like some kind of bank transaction where the teller is black and OMG I have to deposit my freelance check! -- not really something I expect to happen! And if a black person walks up on me, I think my black person-aversion will be pretty much situation-appropriate! So sure, I could go to an A.M.E., or take a African-American studies course, and get totally comfortable with them, but it would be largely pointless and make zero difference in my life, including in my level of trust in black people. It's just ridiculous to imagine that being able to interact with them oneself will make a person more comfortable with how common they are; there's no level of comfort you're going to achieve on the city streets that's going to make it so that lives don't end when black people are approved for mortgages.

So I dunno, a lot of the comfort stuff seems to me like the equivalent of saying "well if you just had sex with enough corpses, you'd get used to it, and be comfortable with a society in which everyone has sex with corpses."

― HI DERE, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:42 (seventeen years ago) link

(yes i am a bitch)

― HI DERE, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:43 (seventeen years ago) link

I don't think anyone is saying that, really. I think it stems from the frustration that the perception of guns as these instantaneous, ready-to-go-off-at-any-second devices does cloud the issue. I certainly wouldn't expect the greater understanding of a gun to make someone change their mind, but it's worth exploring the possibility that some of the more hysterical responses might be muted somewhat. Also, it bears repeating that despite what portrayals might rise from television and video games, shooting accurately (particularly a handgun) is difficult, and I think that sometimes isn't clear if you haven't been exposed to one.

I don't want anyone to feel compelled to go shoot a gun, but I also think that it's fair to expect that if you choose not to do so, you can't hold forth any sort of expertise on how "dangerous" they are, other than in a grander statistical sense.

Not directed at anyone, just responding to nabisco.

xpost haha

― John Justen, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:49 (seventeen years ago) link

I don't want anyone to feel compelled to go get assaulted, mugged or taken hostage by someone with a gun, but I also think that it's fair to expect that if you haven't been, you can't hold forth any sort of expertise on how "dangerous" they are, other than in a grander statistical sense.

― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:51 (seventeen years ago) link

i'm puzzled by the idea that guns aren't inherently "dangerous" - that it's only blind ignorance that makes people feel uncomfortable around them.

xpost

th otm

― lauren, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:52 (seventeen years ago) link

guns dont kill people, black people kill people

― and what, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:54 (seventeen years ago) link

i mean, i'm a licensed driver and am often a passenger in cars and can handle one appropriately and know my road safety rules etc etc, but it doesn't take away from the fact that cars are dangerous. it's just a matter of risk/harm reduction.

― lauren, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:54 (seventeen years ago) link

and luck.

― lauren, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:54 (seventeen years ago) link

I'm talking specifically about the dangerous nature of the object/device itself, and meant the "grander statistical sense" to incorporate understandable fears of gun violence/muggings/etc., but I couldn't figure out a way to state that clearly.

many xposts

― John Justen, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:57 (seventeen years ago) link

OK - so was I, JJ!

― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:58 (seventeen years ago) link

xpost stuff: John, I don't think anyone here has been at all hysterical here. And I think the "grander statistical sense" is the one most people are talking about, really: they're dangerous in that plenty of people get killed by them, and whether or not they go off at any moment, there's a significant number of gun-related accidents. Getting comfortable with them would make me slightly less edgy when there's one in the room with me, yes -- but my worries about US gun ownership aren't based on my personal in-the-room edginess, you know? Which edginess is fairly minor, and not so debilitating that I have any need to go "work" on it.

And just for the record, the "city dwellers" argument is a bit strange to me, too. It's true that in a crowded, well-policed city, you're much less likely to run into wild everyday situations where a gun might be useful (e.g., woodland bear attack or whatever) -- but I have also lived and spent time in very small towns, and I have to say, I was no more expecting gunplay situations to crop up there than I am in NYC. I understand the old rural-homestead pioneer-spirit "miles and miles from the tiny police station" rationale for gun ownership, and am all for people having basic rifles when cougars start prowling through their yards and whatnot, but I think that spirit has extended on into levels of urban and suburban civilization where they're not nearly as appropriate. And I really do wonder about the thing everyone's been asking Roger, the thing people always want to ask people with multiple guns, which is something like: what are you expecting? A home invasion? Mob violence? Post-apocalyptic survivalist free-for-all? The emergence of a totalitarian horror? Most of the potential answers tend to be kind of anti-society on some level or another. (Others just unreal, like the girl I knew whose father spent her college fund on heavy arms to combat a potential UN invasion.)

― nabisco, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:59 (seventeen years ago) link

so anyway this happened yesterday

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Two Secret Service officers have been injured in an accidental shooting outside the White House.

Tuesday's incident occurred in a security booth at the southwest gate.

Secret Service spokeswoman Kim Bruce says one officer was injured in the leg and the other received a shrapnel wound in his face.

Bruce says the injuries appear to be non-life threatening. Both officers were taken to nearby George Washington University Hospital.

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:01 (seventeen years ago) link

I suspect that a gun that wasn't inherently dangerous would not sell very well. Guns are inherently dangerous to anything in range and in front of the muzzle, that, is kind of the point.

― Ed, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:01 (seventeen years ago) link

gun enthusiasts with collections of different weapons typically are not so stupid as to keep them all loaded or even have appropriate ammunition around, you buy the rounds when you go to the range and get rid of them there. a bunch of empty guns in the house is no different to my perception than a big collection of guitars or synthesizers or whatever, honestly.

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:04 (seventeen years ago) link

then how do you explain the evergreen popularity of Nerf, ed

― ghost rider, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:05 (seventeen years ago) link

you have me there.

― Ed, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:06 (seventeen years ago) link

wait... jaymc's uncle built his own CANNON

Haha, I like that you just caught this now. Yeah, he built a few and sold them over the Internet to the Civil War reenactment community. I'm not sure whether they were actually operational or not.

― jaymc, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:06 (seventeen years ago) link

then how do you explain the evergreen popularity of Nerf

a seething, barely sublimated or acknowledged hatred of one's co-workers?

― kingfish, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:07 (seventeen years ago) link

I am eagerly awaiting my permit to conceal and carry black people.

― Fluffy Bear Hearts Rainbows, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:07 (seventeen years ago) link

P.S. the edginess is not gun-specific, either! If I were drinking with friends and one of them pulled out a machete and slapped it on the table, that would make me nervous, too. It's less a matter of misunderstanding guns, and more a matter of recognizing a weapon when you see one, and knowing that the stakes and the care you need to exercise have just racheted up. (I'd imagine a gun safety course tells you the same thing: when the weapon comes out, you have to be more alert and more careful!) And of course compared to any other weapon, a gun tends to have the shortest leap from "everything's fine" to "ok something really bad and dangerous is happening now."

(xpost haha Tom yeah I understand gun-collecting on the level of car-collecting, just trying out different types, but seriously up in Michigan I met plenty of militia-type people who were genuinely stockpiling, and I imagine that's not a Michigan-specific phenomenon. I guess this is where gun-collecting meets survivalism, these people where they raid their homes and find practically revolutionary caches of weapons -- to be fair, usually illegal stuff in those cases.)

― nabisco, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:09 (seventeen years ago) link

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