most underrated players

Kingman had his best year for the '79 Cubs, leading the NL in HR and slugging; still finished only 11th in MVP that year. The deserving reasons are that he still didn't crack the league's top 10 in bWAR (just 10th in oWAR, behind the likes of Larry Parrish and Lee Mazzilli) and his counting stats were goosed by Wrigley Field; the actual reasons are likely that he played for a noncontender AND the writers hated him.

Assuming those extra 58 HR to get to 500 didn't result in a couple 60-HR seasons, I think he slides off the ballot after one year anyway.

i think even then kingman was regarded as just a "two true outcomes" guy, and it's not like beyond his '79 season he was ever a super-impressive homer guy on a season-by-season basis. when he was playing my childhood memories of his '80s seasons were that he was overshadowed in the HR department not only by the obvious suspects like schmidt and murphy but also such legends as gorman thomas and tony armas. i suspect one and done as well.

Actually for the early to mid 80s Kingman was a pretty impressive homer guy. It was not a super homer friendly era.

Kingman was a more consistent hitter of homers than any of the non-Schmidt/Murphy guys you mentioned too (Greg Luzinski also sprang to mind although he was a bitter all around hitter than Armas/Thomas/Kingman).

Yeah I mean his HR numbers were always up there and I guess he was fairly consistent. I guess I phrased that poorly, I just think in those seasons there always seemed to be some less famed slugger who would out perform him HR wise or some old rando like Darrell Evans would drop 40 HR like nbd, and I think during that era he was overshadowed in those seasons. Except for '79. But yeah he retired when I was 10 so I'm probably misremembering.

he hit lotsa tape-measure bombs in his Mets heyday, but no one cared when he was dealt (well, it was same day as Seaver)

I tried to actually project forward to the appropriate ballot, and you guys are probably right, one and done.

If you give Kingman three more years of overstaying his welcome so he could get to 500, he retires in '89, comes on the ballot in '95. Looking to see who was the best first-year match for him that year--keeping in mind that no one really matched up well with Kingman in those days; he was Adam Dunn/Mark Reynolds 25 years before the fact--George Foster was probably the closest. Not really similar, but in a general sense they were both low-OBP power hitters. (Darrell Evans also came on that year, and he matches up better in terms of HR and BA, but he of course was a really good all-around player.) Foster only had 348 career HR, which is well short of 500, but he had other advantages over Kingman: the 50-HR season (still sort of legendary then, before the deluge), the MVP, the famous team. Foster got 4.1% of the vote and was finished. Baylor, a somewhat closer match, got 2.6% in his second year and was finished.

So even though 500 HR was a much more hallowed number then than now, it probably wouldn't have been enough to keep Kingman on the ballot. I will point out, though, that even coming onto the ballot well short of 500 in '92, he still finished ahead of both Ceser Cedeno and Toby Harrah in their first years, players who were far superior, and he was only behind Grich (also first-year) 11 votes to 3, and he's now recognized as one of the greatest players not in the HOF.

Jim Rice was a one dimensional player with inflated hitting stats from his home ballpartk and everybody hated him. Somehow he's in the HOF (and he hit fewer HR's than Kingman).

I'm not saying Kingman would have gotten in, but there's no way he's one and done with 500 HR.

And yeah, Rice had a couple of monster seasons and won an MVP award, Kingman didn't. I think there's still a comparison to be made though.

I'm not happy that Rice made the HOF, but he does have a 47.4 WAR to Kong's 17.3.

Kingman was also a world class dickhead.

well, so was Ted Williams

i think torii hunter is kinda underrated (despite a -.6 war this yr ¯\(°_o)/¯)

Brisbee:

http://www.sbnation.com/mlb/2014/8/19/6045751/most-underrated-players-in-baseball-mlb

don't know what his top 5 will look like, but I still think Beltre is underrated.

lol @ the cody allen quiz

i'm gonna guess alex gordon for #1

also i'm curious about this:

He's hitting .297/.335/.406, good for a 105 OPS+. Those are fine numbers, sure, but you have to force yourself to remember it's 2014, which is a lot closer to 1968 than 2000 when it comes to the run-scoring environment. Put him on the 2000 Royals, and you might have a .330 hitter, someone who clearly stands out.

*pitching was worse

Pitchers are definitely better now, basically every team has two or three relievers throwing 95 and putting up K/9 rates like Billy Wagner or Eric Gagne in their primes. I also think that all of the big tech/stats breakthroughs (pitch f/x, better valuations of defense and defensive positioning) have favoured pitching and defense.

alex gordon is the kind of player who would deserve to get into the HOF if he plays like he has for another ten years.

i'm starting to think Alex Gordon has a slim chance at the MVP, and is def. getting nominated.

naaah, we're not there yet

I also don't think he's in Trout's class (no one is)

Brisbee pt 2

http://www.sbnation.com/mlb/2014/8/20/6049561/most-underrated-players-in-baseball

another year under the radar i might put Rendon on that list

yeesh i'm not sure anyone's missed the klubes train this year, which is his first full year as a good baseball pitcher

gordon should've been somewhere

Hiroki Kuroda deserves a prize for being underrated even though he's played with the Yankees and Dodgers for his entire career.

ya, i have no idea how he pulled that off.

Ian Kinsler. I was looking at this career box the other day:

-- his career WAR is 46.7 after his age-33 season (didn't get started till he was 24); his per-season WAR is 4.7, per-650 PA 5.4
-- only twice (1.9, 2.4) in 10 seasons has he been under 4.0
-- 184 HR, may end up in the 250 range
-- 100+ runs five times, between 70-90 RBI seven times
-- excellent defense, pretty good speed
-- MVP votes four out of 10 seasons
-- JAWS has him as the 23rd best second baseman ever

Real longshot, but--coming off WARs of 5.0/5.7/6.0--four or five more seasons like that and he'd be in the HOF gray area. Is he generally regarded as one of the most underrated players in the game? He doesn't show up in this thread.

^^^ian kinsler is i think turning into the new Beltre, as far as consistency and that creeping possibility of a good HOF case. not sure he can have another four or five seasons like his last few but if he does he'll be approaching a career WAR of 80. that's probably a real stretch, though.

he'll probably pass jeff 'most homers by a second baseman' kent in WAR this year but i think kinsler will be hurt by a) never getting anywhere near an MVP b) maybe never being the best hitter on his own team

Similar Batters
Hanley Ramirez (910)
Chase Utley (910)
Brandon Phillips (903)
Travis Fryman (888)
Rich Aurilia (888)
Bret Boone (884)
Bobby Grich (879)
Jhonny Peralta (875)
Joe Gordon (875) *
Dustin Pedroia (868)

As I wrote on some other thread, I think Adrian Gonzalez's home parks (Dodgers and Padres for the bulk of his career) have ensured that he'll never get any HOF consideration. He's basically the opposite of Troy Tulowitzki:

(close to the same number of games)

Home: .280/.354/.459/.813, 127 HR, 513 RBI
Away: .300/.369/.524/.893, 181 HR, 633 RBI

If you simply double his road stats, he still falls short. But if you take his road stats and add them onto a favorable home park(s), who knows.

until writers learn to look beyond unadjusted dinosaur slash stats -- hey, there are already some! it's not 1997! wowza!

was surprised to not see Beltre on the above list, but that list wasn't including the 2010. since the beginning of that season, he's accumulated 46.2 WAR and passed everyone on that list except Pujols and A-Rod. also 17 of those guys have retired (except Beltre, Pujols, and Suzuki.) the current active top 20:

1. Albert Pujols (17, 37) 100.2 R
2. Adrian Beltre (20, 38) 90.7 R
3. Carlos Beltran (20, 40) 70.4 B
4. Miguel Cabrera (15, 34) 69.7 R
5. Chase Utley (15, 38) 64.8 L
6. Robinson Cano (13, 34) 64.3 L
7. Ichiro Suzuki (17, 43) 59.2 L
8. Ian Kinsler (12, 35) 54.8 R
9. Mike Trout (7, 25) 51.9 R
10. Joe Mauer (14, 34) 51.1 L
11. Dustin Pedroia (12, 33) 51.0 R
12. Joey Votto (11, 33) 50.3 L
13. David Wright (13, 34) 49.9 R
14. Evan Longoria (10, 31) 48.5 R
15. Matt Holliday (14, 37) 45.6 R
16. Curtis Granderson (14, 36) 45.4 L
17. Ryan Braun (11, 33) 44.4 R
18. Troy Tulowitzki (12, 32) 43.7 R
19. Adrian Gonzalez (14, 35) 43.2 L
20. Ben Zobrist (12, 36) 43.1 B

oops, Beltran also hasn't retired. anyway, Beltre is also the only one still playing at a high level.

i guess from that list, in keeping w/the spirit of this thread, I think Evan Longoria is super underrated. playing in Tampa doesn't help, and maybe neither does the fact that he was a massively hyped prospect who was maybe overshadowed and has simply had a vv quietly outstanding career to date.

was a lil surprised that Nellie cruz only has 28.1 career war tho I guess a product of not being a regular til he was 28 yrs old & prob having negative defensive ratings factored in

nick markakis being a decent two week stretch away from 2,000 career hits is blowing my mind.

for some reason i often find myself navigating to cruz's stat pages and being surprised by his WAR, as well.

personally, i always underrate ian kinsler. it's totally arbitrary, but he's 12th in fWAR since 2010

i guess it's just because he's in the AL so i rarely watch him play, and he accumulated a lot of his value through solid defense, which lends itself to underratededereradfdsf

I was thinking about Cruz the other day, that he might be on a list of highest percentage of career WAR accumulated during a player's 30s.

Comparison to three guys I associate with this:

Cruz - 20.5 WAR during 30s/28.1 career WAR = 73%
Bautista - 27.7/34.7 = 80%
Jeff Kent - 40.6/55.2 = 74%
Luis Gonzalez - 32.5/51.5 = 63%

Bautista was 29 when he hit 54 HR, otherwise he'd be up near 100%. I think it's much more common for this to happen with pitchers.

also
edgar martinez - 49.6 of 68.3 = 73%
ozzie smith - 52 of 76.5 = 68%

i should subscribe to the B-R play index so i can see the top ten and past twenty

The Jays had two of them--Edwin just crossed 60%, and I wouldn't be surprised if he works his way up to 75% by the time he retires.

The flip side:

Albert Belle - 68% before he turns 30
Juan Gonzalez - 78%
Ken Griffey Jr. - 84%
Andruw Jones - 92%
Nomar Garciaparra - 93%

mark fidrych - %100

Elvis Andrus? Crossed 30 WAR last season, most years in the 4.0-4.5 range, off to a great start in 2019. Jays fans will always remember him for his role (two crushing errors) in the bat-flip inning.

In James's piece on the greatest center fielders ever:

"I guess that what I am saying is that even among underrated players, (Jimmy Wynn) is underrated. We have a kind of list of historically underrated players, in our field; Bobby Grich, Darrell and Dwight Evans, Gene Tenace, Rick Reuschel. I’m not sure that Wynn gets the references that he deserves on that list."

James has him 14th, a little higher than Jaffe (17th).

brian giles

OBP
1998: .396
1999: .418
2000: .432
2001: .404
2002: .450
2003: .427
2004: .374
2005: .423