why do people on ILM hate "live through this" ?

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Nirvana had a HACK drummer. But the guitar player was good.

Most under-acclaimed song on LTT, BTW: "Jennifer's Body."

― chuck, Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:18 (nineteen years ago) link

Courtney was a much better singer and much better songwriter for one

On which songs does she demonstrate that she was a better songwriter, Chuck?

― frankE (frankE), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:19 (nineteen years ago) link

All the Grohl worship is fine and dandy (yes, he's awesome) but Patty could go head to head with him any day of the week. She was a monster.

― Je4nne ƒury (Jeanne Fury), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:20 (nineteen years ago) link

And Mark Lanegan was (and still is!) better than all of 'em!

― shookout (shookout), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:22 (nineteen years ago) link

[slight aside : is there any true evidence that Kurt wrote any of LTT? Surely somebody (other members of Hole, band acquaintances, etc.) must know something concrete about how these songs came to be.]

― Barry Bruner (Barry Bruner), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:24 (nineteen years ago) link

Her shtick is and was much better than PJ's shtick, too. (In the same way that Stevie Nicks and Grace Slick were better than Nick Cave and Chrissie Hynde and bad cabaret singers.) And her singing was better than Curt's in the same way Grace Slick was a better singer than Bob Mould. And her songwriting was just plain more COHERENT than Cobain's. Across the board. At least partly because she didn't completetely rely on cut-and-paste beatnik poetry horseshit like he did.

― chuck, Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:24 (nineteen years ago) link

C'mon, Chuck. I want a specific example of Coutney Love's songwriting prowess.

― frankE (frankE), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:25 (nineteen years ago) link

One that was not obviously written by a husband or boyfriend or fuck buddy, at least.

― frankE (frankE), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:27 (nineteen years ago) link

I'm trying to wrap my head around how Courtney Love = Grace Slick or even Stevie Nicks as a singer. (I'd meant Pash OTM about the singing and songwriting BTW. I never broke down the drumming of the 2 bands.)

(This thread got me looking for this album for the first time in years but I don't seem to have it anymore. I'll see if I can find a copy.)

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:28 (nineteen years ago) link

But Hole still got better when they were pretending to be Fleetwood Mac than when they were pretending to be X or Sonic Youth or Echo and the Bunnymen or whoever. And early on, as a noise band, they were pretty useless. (Coutney's album this year was actually really good, but then I might like Joan Jett and Lita Ford more than some people.)

I have no idea who wrote what songs, Frank E, and neither do you. "Doll Parts" and "Violet" and "Malibu" and "Jennifer's Body" and "Mono" are as good or better than anything Cobain ever wrote.

― chuck, Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:28 (nineteen years ago) link

And FWIW I think PJ Harvey is way too strong and distinctive as a singer to just be reduced to a couple of influences whom she probably surpasses.

xpost: Admittedly I haven't heard much of anything post- or pre-LTT aside from the odd single.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:29 (nineteen years ago) link

I think so many people are too consumed by KURT COBAIN to notice his *music* is nothing more than cleverly (and sometimes not-so-much) skewed hardcore punk.

― Je4nne ƒury (Jeanne Fury), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:30 (nineteen years ago) link

Her shtick is and was much better than PJ's shtick, too.
Now that's taking things way too far.

― Barry Bruner (Barry Bruner), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:31 (nineteen years ago) link

"Doll Parts" is very clearly a Cobain song.

― frankE (frankE), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:31 (nineteen years ago) link

(I don't really know why I'm responding to this really, I mean I don't hate hole or coutney love, I just think they were kind of sucky. I don't personally believe the stuff about cobain or whoever writing hole's music, fwiw.)

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:31 (nineteen years ago) link

And whether she wrote the words or not, they were still HER SONGS. In the same way the Supremes' songs were theirs and the Shangri-Las' songs were theres. I ASSUME she wrote the great ones, because none of the people who allegedly wrote for her have songs that good on any of their albums, and I have trouble believing that all of them are so altruistic or stupid to give away all of their best songwriting to another singer. But even if she didn't, who cares?? Since when does it even MATTER whether somebody writes their own songs or not? That's just some baloney that hippies and punks are brainwashed with.

― chuck, Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:32 (nineteen years ago) link

One that was not obviously written by a husband or boyfriend or fuck buddy, at least.

Look, I don't usually let myself get carried away on these stupid threads, but your insinuations are incredibly fucking sexist and ignorant and I wish to God you'd shut the fuck up. This is so insulting across the fucking board.

― Je4nne ƒury (Jeanne Fury), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:34 (nineteen years ago) link

There is nothing sexist about saying someone else wrote her songs. Elvis didn't write a lot of his. He bought them and put his name on em.

― frankE (frankE), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:35 (nineteen years ago) link

>people are too consumed by KURT COBAIN to notice his *music* is nothing more than cleverly (and sometimes not-so-much) skewed hardcore punk. <

Except when it was just cleverly-or-not-so skewed powerpop.

― chuck, Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:36 (nineteen years ago) link

Except when it was just cleverly-or-not-so skewed powerpop.

yes! and that is when he *ruled*!!

― frankE (frankE), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:37 (nineteen years ago) link

I still like Live Through This a lot, though it's been awhile since I've listened to it. The "who really wrote the songs" debate is a big bunch of demented hooey.

― Leon Czolgosz (Nicole), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:38 (nineteen years ago) link

what's wrong with being sexy?

― shookout (shookout), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:38 (nineteen years ago) link

There is nothing sexist about saying someone else wrote her songs.

Really? Like how you think her "husband or boyfriend or fuck buddy" wrote her songs? Read between the lines.

― Je4nne ƒury (Jeanne Fury), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:38 (nineteen years ago) link

Chuck, of course it matters who wrote the songs. It's not the be all and end all, but who takes credit for what is important.

You might as well say it's not important who produced the record, or who played guitar on it. Sure, they're still *her* songs no matter who twiddles the knobs on the soundboard, but it's still a crucial element of creating the record.
(lotsa xposts)

― Barry Bruner (Barry Bruner), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:38 (nineteen years ago) link

i heard this album in a newbury comics store a few years ago. it was fucking boring.

― amateur!!st, Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:38 (nineteen years ago) link

(Coutney's album this year was actually really good, but then I might like Joan Jett and Lita Ford more than some people.)

Haha, Chuck, you got some competition on that front!!! ;)

― Je4nne ƒury (Jeanne Fury), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:39 (nineteen years ago) link

Since when does it even MATTER whether somebody writes their own songs or not? That's just some baloney that hippies and punks are brainwashed with.

Don't go telling me she's a great songwriter then...

― frankE (frankE), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:40 (nineteen years ago) link

Really? Like how you think her "husband or boyfriend or fuck buddy" wrote her songs? Read between the lines.

If I say that Elvis' songs were written by a lot of black people, am I being anti-white?

― frankE (frankE), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:42 (nineteen years ago) link

a score against c.l. is not a score against all womankind.

― amateur!!st, Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:43 (nineteen years ago) link

i like nirvana a lot more than hole, but LTT was definitely NOT written by kurt. They may have been influenced by his style (they lived together at the time she wrote most of them for christ's sake), but they follow a logical progression from pretty on the inside.
that said, if LTT isn't at least in the top 50 of the 90s list someone's gonna have to pay.
"it's......not.......yours.........FUCK YOU!!!!"

― Felonious Drunk (Felcher), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:44 (nineteen years ago) link

i really don't think he was being sexist.
xpost

― dyson (dyson), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:45 (nineteen years ago) link

OK but what proof, exactly, do you have that he's wrong about who wrote the songs? This is a circular argument, he says "These songs are good," you reply with "Those were obviously not actually written by her." Either way, a "winner" is you. (xpost)

Joan Jett and Lita Ford are fucking awesome.

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:48 (nineteen years ago) link

> of course it matters who wrote the songs....You might as well say it's not important who produced the record, or who played guitar on it. Sure, they're still *her* songs no matter who twiddles the knobs on the soundboard, but it's still a crucial element of creating the record. <

It's INTERESTING, maybe. But it has NOTHING to do with how good the record is. Period. (And yeah, it does have something to do with how good a songwriter she is. Obviously. But I've already explained why I believe she's a better songwriter than her alleged ghostwriters are.)

― chuck, Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:49 (nineteen years ago) link

I hafta say, I agree w/Chuck.

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:50 (nineteen years ago) link

To be honest, though it's not my view, I can understand why someone, esp given Chuck's tastes in songwriting, would think CL is a better lyricist when I think about it: less miserabilist and self-pitying, less obtuse and obscure.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:50 (nineteen years ago) link

Maybe the sexism was subconscious. I wouldn't be surprised. Either way, it's implicit to the argument. Look at the language. And obviously you're not being "anti-" anything to say Elvis' songs were written by black rock n roll songwriters. But COME ON, Elvis is literally a national landmark, for crissake. If Courtney had a fraction of his respect, we wouldn't be having this heated debate. (Hell, we probably would knowing this place.)

― Je4nne ƒury (Jeanne Fury), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:55 (nineteen years ago) link

I dunno, listening to Pretty on the Inside, followed by Live Through This, followed by Celebrity Skin (let alone America's Sweetheart), they sure *sound* like they were written by multiple personalities at the very least. But hell, Billy Corgan *takes credit* on five songs on Celebrity Skin, so at least that one's pretty clear.

― frankE (frankE), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:57 (nineteen years ago) link

edit:
But hell, Billy Corgan *takes partial credit* on five songs on Celebrity Skin, so at least that one's pretty clear.

― frankE (frankE), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:57 (nineteen years ago) link

the sexism was pretty blatant, and worrying about who's gonna pick up the royalty checks is auteurist bullshit and has nothing to do with anything you can actually hear on the record (or any other record).

― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:58 (nineteen years ago) link

and mrs. einstein came up with e=mc2 big fucking deal

― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:59 (nineteen years ago) link

has Chuck Eddy been possessed by Neil Strauss?

― shookout (shookout), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 17:00 (nineteen years ago) link

I think part of the problem with the whole debate as it's now eternally framed (here and elsewhere) regarding her work is that you can't simply say you're not too impressed the results without a lot of people -- not everyone, mind you -- saying you're either a bigot of some sort or in agreement with them that she's living off others' work (or whatever).

I can hum the chorus to "Miss World" and I've heard a really great arrangement of "Malibu" once. Saw Hole twice live. And I just don't think much of her beyond any of that.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 17:00 (nineteen years ago) link

Hm,looking over the song titles, I do have a lot of good memories. Unfortunately it's not due back for a couple days.

I really don't see the relevance of the 'who wrote it?' debate either.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 17:01 (nineteen years ago) link

Have any of her "fuck buddies" ever come out and said Courtney doesn't write her own lyrics?

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 17:03 (nineteen years ago) link

I mean, IIRC, the Elvis songs and Shangri-La songs in questions were, like, actually credited to other people and not co-credited to Presley or whomever.

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 17:04 (nineteen years ago) link

and mrs. einstein came up with e=mc2 big fucking deal

I really don't see the relevance of the 'who wrote it?' debate either.

The question being mooted since this thread heated up (in my pea brain, at least) is Chuck's claim that she is a better songwriter than her husband.

xpost:
Have any of her "fuck buddies" ever come out and said Courtney doesn't write her own lyrics?

That would be debating her lyricism. Chuck brought up songwriting.

― frankE (frankE), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 17:06 (nineteen years ago) link

dunno, listening to Pretty on the Inside, followed by Live Through This, followed by Celebrity Skin (let alone America's Sweetheart), they sure *sound* like they were written by multiple personalities at the very least.

You could say that about a lot of artists, though.

― Leon Czolgosz (Nicole), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 17:06 (nineteen years ago) link

Chuck's claim that she is a better songwriter than her husband

Should I say something about radical subjectivism now?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 17:07 (nineteen years ago) link

Should I say something about radical subjectivism now?

Isn't that what ILM is all about?!?

― frankE (frankE), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 17:08 (nineteen years ago) link

and mrs. einstein came up with e=mc2 big fucking deal

Yes, actually, that would be a big fucking deal. And not just for women wearing lab coats. Oh fucking hell, it's neither here nor there. (But I do get your point, Blount.)

― Je4nne ƒury (Jeanne Fury), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 17:08 (nineteen years ago) link

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