no boys allowed in the room!!!!

Sorry, this is not really the place, is it, and this is not the topic we are on, I just needed to kind of express some dissatisfaction in some way. :-(

While I do think it serves me well to speak more confidently in my job, just FYI I don't think "leaning in" is the answer to women's woes in the workforce or society, nor do I think that speaking more confidently is some kind of panacea. Nor do I think that the problem with society is that women don't speak confidently, particularly given that doing so often gets women (and especially women of color (and the more intersectional identities someone claims, the riskier it is to deviate from the manner of business communication deemed appropriate for your presentation/station)) labeled as difficult or bitchy or manly or whatever else for doing so.

It's just something I've been trying to work on in my professional life and I felt drunk with confidence (and beer).

I mean, it's definitely a conversation to have and like I said, it's something that I think is good for me to do right now but my experience as a cis 41-year-old nice white lady with a law degree and a closet full of "gender appropriate" business clothes is far from universal.

You know, there's a lot to be said for communicating clearly and confidently, and removing qualifiers, and learning to negotiate clearly and effectively, and that whole "negotiate like a dude" thing has some good points to it.

But that is not the whole of the story, because many times, when a person-who-is-read-as-female does "negotiate like a dude" (i.e. clearly and with confidence and without qualifiers) the chances are non-negligible that she will be punished for being "not feminine enough." So it can be a real lose-lose proposition. You can be as confident as you like, but if the person at the other end is ~threatened by confident, clearly negotiating women~ the whole thing is still not going to work. (And it's still somehow going to be seen as the woman's fault.)

So, y'know, I advocate that it is a good thing to learn, and still a good thing to do. But "women changing" without men changing in complement is not the magical solution to sexism.

So it's great that you do it, carl agatha! I am not trying to diminish your strategy, which sounds great, and positive, and good.

(In short, I was agreeing with you. Sorry, it's just too hot to think here!)

Completely OTM.

That's the problem with pretty much every "how to succeed in business as a woman" book/article out there. They assume everyone has the credibility afforded to able-bodied cis white women with an acceptable gender presentation when that is absolutely not the case.

Speaking of Being Female While Working, let's play Bingo!

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/womens-blog/2014/jul/30/10-sexist-scenarios-women-deal-work-ignored-maternity-risk-everyday-sexism

1, 2, 4, 5, 6 and 8, for sure.

6 was a recurring sketch on Smack the Pony, which I thought was a satyrical joke until it happened to me repeatedly (more often than not, not in the workplace TBF))

Where is "important email/meeting invitation goes to all the men in the team and none of the women, even if it affects everyone or it's their specialist subject"?

Keep getting that one here. Don't know if it's more annoying when you know the sender genuinely thinks you don't (need to) know/do anything in that "oh, you exist. what do you even do here anyway" kind of way, or when someone important asks how come you don't know about this thing "everyone" has been talking about for weeks, do keep up there.

My new boss is actually a woman and so far manages to get in on all these conversations by seniority so I was sort of wondering if there was a suitably tactful way to say "hey, we feel a bit ignored sometimes, so if you ever find yourself being the only woman at the table please could you ask yourself if there's anyone else who might be useful to have there?"

PS I found recent fertility talk and the pill/moods talk interesting and relevant to my recent concerns, just my replies got way too tl;dr or tmi and I deleted them, but thanks - thanks in particular for the pill/moods/side-effects article. I might come back to them when I feel, uh, pithier.

Realized that I haven't talked with any of my girlfriends outside of responding to texted pics of their kids in months. (Aside from the irl visit two of them made to visit me in June) and it's bumming me out so much. I don't feel bad about my life, but I miss relating to them so much that I can barely stand it. Sorry for emo-bursting but I had to put this somewhere and there's nowhere else I could put it.

<3

thanks
i just wrote out and deleted a long blabby post but just thanks :)
i appreciate it and hope everyone understands that i don't expect my friends to be able to have time for me, i simply lament that i feel like they're slipping away (geographical circumstances don't help) and it bums me out.

oh man

while i was in europe i got to go to zurich, where my oldest bff lives, and our other close friend from high school came over from the UK where she has lived for the last 5 years or so. the 3 of us haven't hung out together in 10 years, and bc of the time zone thing, we really talk/skype. they're also not really facebook/email type ppl so our contact times are few and far between.

the first day and half together was fucking MAGIC - we talked non stop for over 9 hours before finally going to sleep, then spent the next day in our pjs, still talking, eating junk food, watching a movie and braiding each other's hair/painting each other's nails. i was so happy, the kind of happy i haven't felt in a long time, bc i don't ever get this kind of girl time anymore.

then on the 3rd day the subject of weight/body issues/diets/food came up and jesus fucking christ. the things my bff was saying were just awful (she is slim, has a conventionally bangin' bod, has basically always been within 5lbs of the same weight as long as i've known her, doesn't have food issues or body issues). it was so depressing to hear the things coming out of her mouth. i tried to reason with her but she thinks fat people are basically lazy and that it's as simple as calories-in-calories-out.

tbh it tainted the last day and half i spent with my friends, and i was kinda glad to go back to paris :/

*rarely skype or talk

xxpost - i meant to follow up my corny symbol with actual words but lol i spaced & look like a dork now ha

LL I know it's not yr nature but I want you to know that it is so right to want yr friends to have time for you

to me it is unavoidable, natural & you are 100% allowed to have those feels even if they feel mean or needy!

which is to say as a person on the interwebs that an occasional blabbing about yr needs as a human in the world is welcome & perhaps necessary & not necess delete-worthy

not that you need permission etc

short version: that feeling sucks & i can relate

^^^

yeah i have a well-established reeeeally hard time opening up to ppl (this is hardly the best environment for that! the vipers are everywhere!) i'm gonna try not to let it gnaw at me but yesterday was bad bc i found out that my last no-kids friend-of-20-yrs is expecting in december, no one had bothered to tell me, i texted her to say congrats, and she never wrote back. the friend who told me also did not write back after i cheerily said "please call me anytime you have a few minutes!" (to dispel the "i'd love to but i never have an hour to sit and talk with you" that I hear all the time)

if i were more self-centered, i'd think it was something i had done, but i know i haven't done anything. if it's that i haven't done enough, there's not much i can do about that either bc i am trying my best without sacrificing the other things that make me happy. on the upside, i forgot to mention it but i have had some other very positive and enriching friendship experiences recently that are totally different from my relationships with old time close gfs, but no less fun/gratifying. mostly thanks for listening. i appreciate the existence of this thread a lot.

FYI your pork recipe was praised universally (AGAIN!) last week by ppl who I'd made it for. My mom was also in the room at the time and I credited you and she enjoyed being reminded of you and your visit and how nice and fun it was!

Basically one way or the other you're never far from my mind, I think it must be your intense you-ness. <3

hey thanks! that trip was one of several "drive for hours to hang out for a night or two" trips that have been among the highlights of the last few years.

Lol my mom drove 12 hours to hang out in the Berkshires w me and 5 other crazy dancers for about 1.5 days and then drove 12 hours back--if that is "crazy," we're all in it together.

I am am going to AZ in October to visit my closest female friend who I've known for over 20 years. We're going to take a road trip to Sedona and then on the way back stop at a bunch of places including a virtually abandoned Flintstones theme park and a place that specializes in pies! I am so so excited for the whole time but mostly just to spend time with her. :D

that sounds fantastic!
friend roadtrips rule

I never heard back from my friend of 25 yrs that I mentioned upthread

my desperate handwritten letter to her either fell on deaf ears, got lost or she moved & didnt tell anyone

i have other longstanding friends who are still in my world & i love them also, but this one cuts deep

i will keep the candle burning but i kinda know deep down that its done :(

That is so sad. I'm sorry.

It's an awful feeling when someone you have thought of as your friend for a long time either can't or won't make time for you. It really hurts.

But people change, circumstances change; the only constant in life is change.

otm

I have recently distanced myself from a female friend. I feel awful, but it's come to the point where we just don't have anything in common anymore. We met at my work, 7 years ago. We were very good friends for a while, and mutual friends with another coworker. The three of us would hang out all the time. Then me and the other coworker became a lot closer. Then they both left the agency. Then the two of them had a HUGE falling out, and I was kind of caught in the middle. The original friend always wants to dine out at somewhere prohibitively expensive, or go shopping. Friend #2 just likes to chill and do dorky stuff. I feel like I have hung out far more with Friend #2 and we've become closer and closer, all while Friend #1 and I have drifted apart, to the point where i have now not seen Friend #1 since January. It's sad to see a friendship end, but.... I just can't force it.

I asked Friend #1 to hang out and do something chill, like go on a walk or see a movie, about 2 months ago. She replied "I want to go to sushi and dancing!" - I had like, $20 in my bank account. This is why we never get together.

one of my favorite old friends called me yesterday and it made me so happy -- like, she had a minute and thought of me and actually called me. it was great.

that's not why i bumped this thread though -- i was listening to the radio today and this lady was talking about a book she wrote about menopause (mostly a lol memoir type thing i think but i don't know who she is tbh). she was going on about how women in peri- and full menopause have less estrogen in their bodies, so they start to act less caring and nurturing and wanting to do fewer things for other people. she used an example of a woman getting hostile because her kids wanted her to fold their clothes or something like that. and i was like hold on -- (this is my question) -- estrogen doesn't make a person nurturing, right? the decreased amt of it doesn't make someone (like a woman going through The Change) un-nurturing, right?

i mean it sounded like garbage but she was saying it confidently and the interviewer didn't say anything contrary (this was on npr, "here and now" i think?) so i wondered if maybe i am ignorant about estrogen? then i googled and the only things that come up are garbage, so...that's not true, right? that is to say: there is not a relationship between estrogen and nurturing behaviors? i feel kinda dumb even asking this but it has been bugging me.

For Ivy's sake I hope it's garbage bc I have a suspicion I'm going right from post-partum to peri-menopause (I still haven't gotten my period so fingers crossed it just never comes back).

More likely the last in the example was just tired of folding all the damn clothes all the time.

Lady not last

Also my mom went through menopause when she was my age. I just found this out. It's like, could you have mentioned that before I waited until I was 37 to start trying to have a kid? Dang.

yeah it sounded like str8 horseshit but at the same time she said it like it was a known truth and all of sudden i was like huh?!
like i know there are premenstrual estrogen spikes and i know that they affect my mood, but that mood has nothing (NOTHING) to do with a tendency for or against "nurturing"

yeah that seems like horseshit but idk

Yeah let's not discount the likelihood (HIGH, IMO) that what she's talking about is women deciding that sacrificing themselves, their time, etc, for other people is NOT THEIR DUTY TO THE WORLD. A person can't just get tired of that shit?? Please.

Or, what carl said.

i heard that too. i don't ever feel a very nurturing instinct and i was tired so i felt like "oh, i guess that's what it is, i'm menopausal"

harbl otm -- i've been menopausal since, like, birth

well obvs that's what i was thinking too!!! i didn't explicitly say it but

sisterhood of the travellong fuck this bullshit pants

Sisterhood of the traveling I'm tired of bleeding in these stupid pants.

Also LL I think you are a pretty nurturing person! Not mothering, but you definitely care for people and dogs around you. Also you always have snacks.

snackmom

I am, but I've got enormous doubts that it has anything to do with estrogen. The more estrogen I feel, the more I despair at the general state of human existence tbrr. PMS makes me depreeeeeeeeeeessed. If that's an estrogen spike, no thx. Tying nurturing to estrogen just seems depressing to me. That this lady thought it was funny made me bummed out about the general understanding re: how women's bodies work :(

it adds a lot of extra (& unnecessary) anxiety about nurturing.. & estrogen levels in general. telling women that you need 'this much' estrogen to somehow attain a motherly instinct? like, it's bad enough that women are constantly called into question for not being motherly enough & all of the stigma tied to post partum depression without feeling like they have to meet some kind of estrogen goal where they suddenly will be delighted to fold their kids clothes... fuck that

yeah OTM the both of youse.

sisterhood of the travellong fuck this bullshit pants

― SEEMS TO ME (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, September 3, 2014 1:02 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Sisterhood of the traveling I'm tired of bleeding in these stupid pants.

― carl agatha, Wednesday, September 3, 2014 1:16 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

<3 <3 <3

WIN

well obvs that's what i was thinking too!!! i didn't explicitly say it but

― cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Wednesday, September 3, 2014 12:23 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah I got you! I just have to overstate everything, you know me.

feeling like they have to meet some kind of estrogen goal where they suddenly will be delighted to fold their kids clothes.

OTM--this is that emotional labor. DOING labor isn't enough, you have to pretend it's your greatest pleasure in life lest anyone think you don't love them enough.

So last night I had my first appointment with a nutritionist which was probably long overdue but it left me so excited and hopeful. Our whole goal is to work on my mentality of good foods v. bad foods and dieting or restriction and food-associated guilt in general. Basically we're trying to reshape the entire way I think about food and body image. We're going to try to do with using intuitive eating and I'm not allowed to track or count anything anymore which is both liberating and terrifying. I was also interested to learn that I was eating way few calories on most days and then overcompensating on weekends and throwing everything off whack. Anyway - this whole thing should be very interested and I'm excited to be doing it. Between this and my 2x a week therapy I'm pretty sick of talking/thinking about myself but I'm hoping it'll all be worth it soon.

Good luck, E. That sounds really interesting, and I hope you find it useful.

Thank you :).