Westminster paedo ring

Please explain the "consider the source" aspect of the scriptonite piece for a lowly American. I just read it and am feeling a bit vertiginous tbrr.

I'm not sure if its the scriptonite website where I first read this story, but the place I first read this was also awash with stories of a decidedly anti-semitic and homophobic nature. Like I say, there may be truth to it all. But this *is the internet.

A few years ago, a friend was telling me that the U.K. was absolutely awash in institutional pedophilia. She's a very trusting person with a history of buying into things she's seen on cable tv, so I tend to take the things she tells me with a few grains of salt and if necessary, gently push back with some guidance towards the facts if she seems to have been led a little too far out on a limb. So it's been really interesting for me watching the whole Jimmy Savile scandal unfold and now this whole thing popping up. Worried that I'm going to have to walk back my debunking of the Animal Planet Mermaids special.

It has a Bill Maloney link, he is a shouty activist type who muddies the waters with Ickeish type associations. My uncle who helped a lot of Artane abuse victims make cases against The Christian Brothers, says people like him are too unprofessional to be involved in such important work.

yes those Bill Maloney videos/documentaries on youtube are utterly mental and completely get in the way of incredibly important issues. even when some of the evidence is compelling, the presentation is too nuts to be taken seriously....

Soon as I saw Cliff mentioned I thought, "Oh shut up."

so, um, yeah

Not saying he's innocent or anything, but I checked to see if this thread revive was prompted by any new wrinkles in the story and it seems the main news story today is about how the BBC covered the raid, rather than any further incriminating evidence re: Cliff. Have I missed something?

it seems like all the papers have now gone into 'protect cliff, fuck the bbc' mode

no, nothing new, I just felt like stoking the fires of hell

i'm just glad that the calendar is going to continue

http://www.contactmusic.com/story/cliff-richard-backtracks-and-releases-2015-calendar_4349026

Do we think the papers would be in 'protect Cliff' mode if they knew he had actually done wrong? I know its crazy to imagine newspapers learning from their mistakes, but post-Saville and in this Yewtree era, isn't it crazy risky for them to turn a blind eye, if they 'know' of anyone wrongdoing on Cliff's part (and I mean 'know' as much as most people 'knew' of Saville's reputation and the surrounding rumours). Again, not defending or indeed 'protecting' Cliff, but I don't see waterproof logic behind the papers' move here, beyond rote BBC-bashing.

Could it be a way of keeping the story in the papers - wringing more clicks out of something which has so far proved to be a good source of clicks but which isn't generating anything else publishable right now?

this has been circling for years now and it just seems like there is loads of fairly well established information on it; how have there been no further charges? is it that almost everyone involved is already dead

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORU5x-ryedU

Already linked in the Savile thread:

Historical abuse inquiry: Police examine 'possible homicide'

The investigation continues:

Child abuse inquiry: Police investigate three alleged murders

Fucking hell this gets bleaker and bleaker, it's like the plot of some Scandinavian police drama.

There's a quote from the witness, 'Nick', directly implicating a former Tory MP in one of the murders:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/westminster-paedophile-ring-abuse-victims-4638748

the way things are going revelations that senior establishment figures are indeed 12-foot blood-drinking lizards from outer space would be something of a relief

is anyone ever actually going to be held to account? or are they just going to let everyone involved die of natural causes then shrug it off?

there are allegations that david cameron made a damning tape about ken clarke 'disappear' while cameron was head of comms at carlton tv.

Police have to investigate when allegations are made. Relatively recent examples (like McAlpine) make it pretty clear that not all the allegations being made are going to have much of a basis in reality.

Except in this instance the Met have put themselves on record as saying they believe the witness is credible, which is an extraordinary thing to say publicly given the circumstances.

Nevertheless, internet conspiracy theorists be having a field day over this - the Cameron/Ken Clarke thing seems particularly outlandish given that Cameron would later go on to put him in charge of the British legal system.

Wasn't LEON BRITTAN in charge of the British legal system for some time?

well, quite. i think regular conceptions of 'outlandish' don't really apply when we're talking seriously about MPs raping and murdering little boys.

Except in this instance the Met have put themselves on record as saying they believe the witness is credible, which is an extraordinary thing to say publicly given the circumstances.

They didn't just say the allegations were credible, they said they were "true", which is even more extraordinary unless they have substantially more corroborating evidence than they are admitting to.

A number of MPs were clearly involved in abusing children. That seems beyond doubt. Beyond that, it doesn't sound like they are currently in a position to say what happened. The degree to which the net and the press have been willing to accept 'the murderous gay conspiracy at the heart of the establishment' before any robust evidence has been brought to light makes me a touch uneasy, given the echoes of other homophobic conspiracy theories that have circulated over the years. Which is obviously not to say it couldn't be true.

The idea that they self-identified as gay to remove their actual 'sexuality' from investigation or scrutiny?

theres an antisemitic element as well as gay panic

Yes, absolutely.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/12/18/victim-i-watched-british-mps-sexually-abuse-murder-young-boys.html?via=twitter_page

I can't really understand the lack of coverage about this. Isn't it usually the kind of thing the guardian are all over?

They seem supportive: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/dec/18/guardian-view-tackling-child-sex-abuse-job-half-done

When, in 1999, Sir William Macpherson published his report into Stephen Lawrence’s murder and pronounced the Metropolitan police institutionally racist, it marked the moment when the whole discourse around policing changed. Something similar may have happened on Thursday, when the Met declared that, despite a lack of corroboration, it found the evidence of a survivor of child sex abuse at the hands of a VIP paedophile ring to be “credible and true”.

Lack of anything to go on other than the statement mean there would be nothing they can print though. They can't accuse living people of anthing without any evidence.

I was wondering if this had to do with the cuts to the police budget?

I don't want to be rude or anything, but these stories sound an awful lot like some of the satanic ritual abuse cases in the late 80s/early 90s, which of course turned out to be totally false... Children being driven to secret abuse parties involving elite members of the society, kids being killed with no repercussions, etc, similar claims were made in those cases, and it turned out to be either false memories (in the case of adult witnesses), or just kids making up stuff. What makes me spectical is the claims of these sort of outrageous things (like child murders) happening involving heavily scrutinized public figures, and yet no one seems to have known or talked about this events besides this one guy, seems like the police can't even figure out who these supposed dead children were. It's just like what happened during the SRA panics.

I'm not saying this guy wasn't abused by someone as a kid, but since false memory syndrome is very real, and there are numerous cases where adults claiming they were abused as kids turned out be suffering from it, I find it weird if the whole police investigation is based on the claims of this one man alone, seemingly with no other evidence. Are the British cops really that eager to act?

Thing is, we're all aware of those past things, as are the Police.

seems like the police can't even figure out who these supposed dead children were

well, they have leads:

Officers confirmed that they had spoken to the family of Martin Allen, a boy who disappeared in 1979, but they said it was too early to say if his case was linked to Nick’s allegations. The force also said it was in contact with Sussex police which is carrying out a review of the case of an eight-year-old boy murdered 33 years ago.

Vishambar Mehrotra, a 69-year-old retired magistrate, recorded a male prostitute saying in a telephone call that his son Vishal may have been abducted and taken to the Elm Guest House in Barnes, south-west London, in 1981, the Daily Telegraph reported.

Mr Mehrotra took the recording to the Metropolitan Police at the time but told the newspaper that they refused to investigate an allegation implicating "judges and politicians".

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/child-abuse-inquiry-met-police-investigate-alleged-murders-9933320.html

while i can see how this has parallels to satanic panics, there have been allegations swirling about this for a long, long time and there does seem to be a fair amount of evidence that those allegations were ignored or covered up and important evidence was conveniently 'lost'.

yeah, I think the 80s/90s satanic abuse thing is in the back of a lot of people's minds & it's another reason there isn't more noise about this yet.
Not really evidence, but interesting:
http://www.exaronews.com/articles/5428/police-privately-admit-cover-up-for-paedophile-mps-and-vips

just read that there were 144 complaints of abuse against cyril smith. fucking hell

Thing is, we're all aware of those past things, as are the Police.

I would hope so. Of course it's perfectly possible they have other evidence they're not willing to share with media yet, but based on all the articles linked to this thread their only source for these claims seems to be thic "Nick" guy. And sure there may be some kids who disappeared around the same time "Nick" says he saw boys being murdered, but sadly kids disappearing isn't that odd, there's isn't necessarily any connection.

What I'm trying to say is, I've no problem believing this guys was abused, and it's certainly possible some high-standing politicians could be pedophiles, such things have happened before. But the stories of kids being driven by chauffeured into secret pedophile parties where some of them are killed for thrills, this all sounds a bit too lurid, and too reminiscent of earlier (baseless) abuse panics to accept based on guy's testimony alone.

not so long ago people wouldn't believe this stuff because no one was on the record and now some people won't believe it, even though people now are on the record. some people don't believe the Bill Cosby stuff despite a tsunami of testimony, so.. you know.

At the very least people who come from traditionally powerful families, who have been through boarding school and elite universities, would not be out of place at an initiation or semi-ritual gathering involving sex

ot so long ago people wouldn't believe this stuff because no one was on the record and now some people won't believe it, even though people now are on the record. some people don't believe the Bill Cosby stuff despite a tsunami of testimony, so.. you know.

I knew someone would bring the Cosby case up, but I don't think it's comparable at all. With Cosby, you have several women repeating similar stories of what he did to them, and they were all grown-ups when he raped them, so there's no reason to doubt these stories aren't true. Something like false memory syndrome certainly wouldn't explain it. Whereas in this case there seems to be one person telling what happened to him when he was young child decades ago. The possibility that he's suffering from false memory syndrome, or that he simply invented some of this stuff, is much higher than in the Cosby case, where it's zero.

Again, I'm not saying that I think his whole story is false. That there are people with power who use that power to cover their abuse of children is an undeniable fact. But what this guy is saying goes beyond that, he seems to be suggesting that there was/is a conspiracy of paedophile politicians that managed to cover up, among other things, multiple murders. Of course it's not impossible that this really happened, but I don't think one guy's testimony, based on his childhood memories (however much he himself believes all these things really happened), should be enough to make it a fact.

I was wondering if this had to do with the cuts to the police budget?

It has been mentioned, with the subtlety we've come to expect from the British police force, that "investigations into historical abuse" might be compromised by further cuts - which would be fair comment if they'd picked another day to bring it up.

At the very least people who come from traditionally powerful families, who have been through boarding school and elite universities, would not be out of place at an initiation or semi-ritual gathering involving sex

― cardamon, Friday, 19 December 2014 13:15 (4 hours ago)

jesus, four hours and nobody has noticed this late contender for uk post of the year

What exactly goes on at these elite universities then?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piers_Gaveston_Society

inb4

Ian Hislop?!??!

struck by another's tut

That's fair put me aff ma tea. (xp)

inb4

― imago, Friday, December 19, 2014 5:34 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

that was def a semi-ritual from your description

Oh well, even for Wiki that doesn't exactly scan like ironclad proof.

Exaro has folded.

they didn't publish much eh? was p much Westminster paedo focused and there hasn't been a lot of developments in that of late

Yes, it started out as an investigative new site with a broader remit but seems to have been just focused on this for at least a year.

I've seen some speculation that Exaro's folding could be related to the Henriques inquiry into the police's handling of Westminster paedo allegations, which may well be critical of Exaro + the police's relationship with them. I think they had financial problems as well, though?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3716348/Janner-s-family-warn-child-sex-inquiry-flawed-s-revealed-star-witness-probe-lied-abuse-care-home-boss.html

Doubts about Tony's reliability are especially significant because, although 33 people have now claimed Janner abused them, for many years he was the only accuser. They suggest that the decision not to charge Janner was not an 'Establishment cover-up', as some have claimed, but a determination on ordinary legal grounds.

On January 29, 1991, Tony went to a local police station to spend the whole day being interviewed about Janner.
This was when he made his claims about Barbara Fitt.

After the interview, the police passed the allegations about Mrs Fitt – who was still running Station Road – to the social services department, along with a copy of Tony's statement. In the summer of 1991 a panel of senior managers noted her exemplary record and decided to take no further action, determining that the claims were bogus, a complete fabrication.

Mrs Fitt told the panel she thought Tony may have been seeking 'revenge' because she had been responsible for having him moved in 1974, after the incident with the six-year-old.

this seems concerning, though it would be helpful to know how the panel came to the conclusion that the allegations against Fitt were bogus, and obviously it could be the case that his account of abuse by Fitt was fabricated but his account of abuse by Janner was true.

Fitt also mentioned here ("Mr A" = the accuser referred to as "Tony" in the Mail article)

https://ianpace.wordpress.com/2014/08/08/decision-not-to-arrest-greville-janner-in-1991-then-attorney-general-and-dpp-need-to-answer-questions/

Mr A claimed that weekly trips had been arranged for him to the MP’s London home and to the Holiday Inn by Barbara Fitt, then Officer-in-Charge of Station Road children’s home, Wigston, Leicester, though conceded that this would have been impossible with the first visits, as Fitt had only taken over the home four months before he left it.

TBH I assumed Exaro was funded largely by someone who cared a lot about this and basically nothing else, to the point of monomania.

seeing reports that Goddard has quit as head of the csa inquiry?

the Times is alleging that Goddard quit after "she was warned by a senior official over her frequent use of racially derogatory language", including claiming that Britain has so many paedophiles "because it has so many asian men"

https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/786678658182291456

also, the Henriques inquiry into Operation Midland has apparently been completed, but the police have not said how much of it will be published, if any?

jings

Sir Edward Heath would have been questioned over sex abuse claims if he was alive when they came to light, police have said.

Wiltshire Police launched Operation Conifer in 2015 when the former PM was accused of historical child sex abuse.

The Conservative politician would have been interviewed under caution over seven claims, including the alleged rape of an 11-year-old, they said.

No inference of guilt should be drawn from this, police stressed.

The allegations include one of rape of a male under 16, three of indecent assault on a male under 16, four of indecent assault on a male under 14, and two of indecent assault on a male over 16.

The earliest, dating from 1961 when Sir Edward was Lord Privy Seal, alleged he had raped and indecently assaulted an 11-year-old boy in London "during a paid sexual encounter in private in a dwelling."

Another two of the seven claims relate to "paid sexual encounters."

The Sir Edward Heath Foundation called the report "profoundly unsatisfactory".

There was that credible testament from the lady who said she saw 11 children from Haute de la Garenne go out with Heath on his yacht, but only 10 returned.

testimony even. just having a grim lol at the idea of the testaments of the twelve pederasts!

what makes the testimony about him dumping children's bodies from his yacht "credible"?

tbh the report is highly unlikely to say "if allegations like these were brought to light today, we'd totally blow them off". idk how much point there is in releasing a report that just indicated the police would do the basics of their job in 2017.

the usual formulation is "credible witness" i think: which means the testimony may be implausible but nothing (besides this specific implausibility) seems to stand against our taking the witness seriously*

*and of course credible witnesses often just make mistakes

xps
only one she alleged. And given the children's home he was frequenting, and its sordid history - it seems credible enough to me.

well tbf the focus of operation conifer wasn't 'what would the police do about these allegations today' it was 'is there any substance to these kid-fucking allegations about ted heath and others' xp to sv

and to that end

As part of the £1.5m investigation, three people unconnected to Sir Edward were arrested for offences related to child abuse, one of whom is still being investigated.

That's the point of the operation but if the conclusion as to whether there is any substance to it is ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ then i'm not sure how much value there is in publicly saying they would have questioned him - which would be the starting point of any basic investigation but will inevitably be interpreted as an indicator of guilt however many qualifiers they put in.

Strikes me as a weird statement to release.

the fact that the police also leaked to newspapers about how they're "110% sure" that there is substance to the allegations may lead one to think a lot of this is about justifying the time and resources that have been spent on this

given that it was already known operation conifer's remit would include ted heath it surely would have been stranger if they hadn't addressed their findings, inconclusive as they are, when the report was published

it'd be the first thing the media would ask about, might as well address it head-on

This business seems to have run its course:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/may/14/westminster-vip-abuse-accuser-fled-to-sweden-when-story-collapsed

Jesus.

I don't wanna say "I told you so", but...