no boys allowed in the room!!!!

Oh, Roxy, I'm so sorry. That sounds shitty and awful.

I'm on a post-gig high and soaring with crushes x2 and just wow.

needed to get my head together and calm down before posting this, but basically: i was meeting casually with a friend before our official rock camp planning meeting today and just tossing ideas and feelings around, and i mentioned that a dude had volunteered to do a short workshop about women in electronic music, and making electronic music, etc., and how cool and important i thought that was for these girls to learn. she dismissed it and said one of us should teach it instead, and i said "we're all unqualified to teach it compared with him, though" - and she said basically that no man should be teaching anything at the camps. WHICH I TOTALLY DISAGREE WITH! i totally understand the need for women-only spaces etc, but the focus of this camp is training these girls to be able to do anything they need to do, and do it well. I feel if we have no women drummers who can teach drumming lessons, then we need a male to teach it (a situation we are actually in right now) rather than have a woman teach them badly. YES women in leadership roles, and YES girls only at the camp, but learn from whoever is coming from the right place and can teach the best - am i out of line or wrong here? we're seriously talking about having a woman who is not a drummer do the drum instruction despite several right on and excellent dude drummers volunteering. is that in the kids' best interest? i feel like making it a woman only space in this situation might benefit us more than the campers? please help.

it came up again later in our meeting when someone said "we should have the girls pick a woman musician they want to be like and then pick that idea apart, like what they like about her and what they want to or can emulate about her songwriting playing, etc" - and i thought but didn't say that we don't need say "a woman musician," because IF A LITTLE GIRL WANTS TO BE PETE TOWNSHEND SHE DAMN WELL CAN and I want her to know that. That is so important to me.

Additionally, was (in before-meeting casual meeting) expressing that i feel like rock camp is prescriptive ("rock", guitars basses and drums only) and that i hope to involve electronic music, and hiphop, and etc, and do a whole camp about sound teching, and etc etc. and she just goes "we can't take that on!" and laughed while typing furiously, like i was crazy. ok. maybe you can't.

it's not like i was saying we need to do this TODAY, but i mean...that's not a crazy idea. that shit is a must if we're really focused on training up girls to hang in the music world.

so much trouble expressing myself due to lupus brain fog, and also questioning what i mean and if i am really thinking what i'm thinking - all lupus things.

You're totally loud and clear. Nothing infuriates me more than people not bothering to hide their disdain for other people's opinions. Also I know next to nothing about music but I agree with you on all three counts.

Yeah I think there's a difference between women-only spaces and girls-only spaces, and competent instruction is key here. Also OTM about expanding beyond rock. Basically I agree with you all around.

like, men are not their peers. they are our peers. right? obv we're not going to have 14 year old boys in there making them uncomfortable.

Yeah exactly. I went to an all girls camp and there were dudes there as counselors. It strikes me as being similar to that. Or male teachers at an all girls school.

xp - having a non-drummer teach drumming is a big mistake. If you've already done as much outreach to solicit female volunteers for these roles as you can, then get a dude, rather than someone who can't do it. It's something that if you don't learn "right" you end up spending way more time unlearning them, and just because it's one of the more physically demanding instruments, learning to play wrong can cause some serious physical problems. And I apologize for sounding like a broken record about ergonomics and drumming, but I think it really is important, and I've seen too many drummers (mostly dudes) end up with repeated stress injuries, etc. from playing wrong.

Definitely expanding the musical scope is a great idea.

As far as the woman musician vs. just any musician thing goes -- I mostly agree with you, but it would be cool (and maybe this is a different workshop/exercise) to highlight woman musicians that might be more obscure but have done things in line with the girls' interests and aesthetics?

totally. that's my concern, that we're going to ruin these drummers especially. they will do that over my dead body.

and regarding the last point, i agree, but we're doing lots to highlight and teach about women in rock every day, and obv they need to learn about women in rock. i just feel like limiting them to a woman musician in such a personal exercise as that particular one wouldn't be helpful.

it just needs to be whoever they want to be like or who they identify with. if they want to be alice cooper then they need to pick him. imo. i would have been hard pressed at age 8 to not pick paul mccartney, and i think if someone had asked me to focus on what exactly i liked about him and what aspects of his playing, presence and songwriting i wanted to and could accomplish myself, it would have been so valuable.

Oh definitely! I mean, at that age, most of my musical "influences" were men, granted that was over two decades ago, and before the internet, but I definitely felt discouraged by thinking that I couldn't be like Peter Murphy or Peter Hook because I was lacking a peter between my legs. (sorry for bad pun)

yeah i want to help them not feel that way! if poss

You're doing the lord's work, roxy

well ty now just to get people to shut up and let me do it. lol.

Oh god I agree so much. You're right about drumming and also about competent teaching. And also about being whoever you wanna be. I waited way too long to start bc the music I liked was almost always being played by men and I thought I couldn't hang. ;_; but true.

yes!

let them pick Randy Rhoads or Lita Ford or whoever, but THEN blow their minds when a great instructor (m or f) *shows* them at 12 'hey here are some cool ways you can do what they do'

that has to be the power of girl camp. if you limit it, you're closing a door.

Yeah, this sounds like a case where idealism and pragmatism are pointing in different directions.

Like, it would be great if you could find 100% female instructors 100% qualified to teach those workshops, but this being the world we live in, we have to work with what we have. I have spent my entire life, when I have no female role models, I pick a male role model and gender-flip. If a female instructor is not available (man, I wish I could do your electronic music workshop but there is an ocean in the way) then get a pro-woman man. But that is my A-number-1 one concern, and my only caveat is make sure you get the *right* dudes.

Because I know that the Right Dudes exist, and I have had many of them as teachers and mentors and friends during my time in music, and I was hugely grateful for their belief and support. But that is urgent and key - that you find dudes who can do the whole "belief and support" - because I have also encountered dudes put in teaching positions who do not bother to conceal their contempt for women and their perceived abilities. (I mean, me, I'm pig-headed; if a dude says "womanhood precludes X*" then I take that as a spur to get my head down and show that idiot, here's me and my dumb ladybody DOING X, AND DOIN' IT BETTER THAN YOU, ARSEHOLE) Make sure you do not let any dudes like this near your camp, because they can ruin a musician way way worse than a bad drum instructor ruining drummers.

Finding dude instructors who will acknowledge "yes, you will face more barriers than men" (because I encounter the opposite attitude, the whole "there are no barriers for women! if there are less women in electronic music, it's because they're not interested/less good/whatever" which is also so so damaging because the message that comes through is "if you don't succeed, it is YOUR FAULT!") but at the same time project "you CAN do this and do it in an AWESOME way".

I dunno; it's like... there are so many men who *will* tear women down. I think it's actually an equally important lesson for young female musicians that ~not all men~ (sorry) think or behave that way, that there are male musicians and mentors and teachers who will take you seriously, will respect and help and mentor you. It's a good counter balance and an "it doesn't have to be this way" lesson.

On role models, it's like... OK, 9/10 of my role models have been men because that's who was out there. However, I do think there's a case to be made for presenting female role models, *because* they can be hard to find. Not in a prescriptive "YOU HAVE TO PICK A WOMAN FOR A ROLE MODEL" but more in a "there are women, out there, who you may not be aware of, doing this thing you like, and if she can do it, you can do it." It's fucking stupid, that in 2014, we have to still be ~raising awareness~ that there are, e.g. female electronic musicians, in fact, that many of the pioneers of electronic music were women, but this is the stupid fucking counteracting of the world's sexism that has to be done. Still. (Can you feel my frustration? (I'm a frustraaaaated maaaaan...)) But there's a difference between "hey there are some people out there like you, doing what you want to do" and "if you want to be Alice Cooper, BE THE BEST DAMN ALICE COOPER YOU CAN BE, GIRL!"

And as to "we can't take that on" well, why the fuck not? I mean, there's a case for being realistic, and not biting off more than you can chew. But women, consistently, undersell their abilities and under-estimate their potential and this is also really damaging and limiting. I know; it's how women are trained to be. But fuck that. (Unless it's just rockism in disguise, in which case, even more urgently, fuck that.)

But basically, yeah, Roxy, you're in the right on everything here. I mean, I'm trying to prise out the kernel of good intention in the midst of all the bullshit. But basically? Stick to your guns, we got your backup here.

I can see a practical reason for sticking to rock if you have limited teaching time and funds, but if you *can* expand the boundaries then you should. And yeah, if you can have excellent female instructors 100% then you should, but there is NO WAY that you should water down the quality of instruction in order to make that happen. I mean, if you ended up with 100% male instructors that would be weird and you might need to consider whether you were the best people to run a girls rock camp, but... that's already not going to happen.

With regard to the "pick a role model", there's definitely a navigation here between leading by example in showing female role models at the forefront, and a prescriptivism/ghettoisation of female roles in music. If a kiddy version of me showed up wanting to know about electronics, I'd be glad to know of Derbyshire and Oram, but I wouldn't be glad to be forced to follow them and not Vorhaus if I wanted to bloody well be Vorhaus.

Basically I'm just following everyone else here with a "Roxy OTM".

yes, roxy is absolutely otm.

also i think this girls rock camp is going to be very great and the girls will never forget it.

Roxy and others otm, also you could have a discussion with the kids about this very thing e.g. do you think we should include guys at this thing, and talk about what we have discussed here? Although would prob end up as a points scoring exercise by other organisers...

I don't mean to derail, if there's more productive discussion to be had on the topic above, but I just need to... spout.

I dunno; I get so caught up in ~discussing~ and ~debating~ all these ~issues~ and right now, I'm just tired of being ... "angry" isn't even the right word, nor is "outrage" the right word. It's just that thing where all the angry-making events and discussions of the world just start to pile up on me, and I'm just sick of feeling provoked and sick of feeling like I have to constantly counter and argue down the injustice and absorb the hurtfulness. I'm tired of existing in that mode, because I get too full of anger and hurt, and it's not a nice place to live, but also it is boring to be there all the time.

So I don't want to be there. I just want to go ~BLEEEE CRUSHES~ right now and revel in a bit of untrammelled joy. And I know that if there's anything ILX hates, it's crushes and it's untrammelled joy, but right now, that's what I feel like feeling.

And I feel like I am living in luxury right now because I am revelling in two crushes right now, of rather different sorts, and it's like having one of each is... I don't know what to do with all this happiness!

So there's Type X crush, which is where you really admire and respect a person, because of their work, because of their competence, because they are morally sound and a good person, and the feelings about their qualities expands up into crushhood, and it's like your positive feelings about their actions and qualities expand up to form a regard which turns into crush and imbues them with sexiness and attractiveness because they are so inherently wonderful. Then there's a Type Y crush, which is all about how physically sexy and how attractive and beautiful a person is, and therefore your feelings about their looks have a halo effect whereby you start to appreciate everything that that person does, because their actions and qualities become imbued with their inherent sexiness.

I'm not saying that either of these forms are more legitimate or more "pure" than another, just that there are different forms of crush. And I currently have one of each of these types of crushes!

And I am now going to completely dissolve in squee because I very recently had the experience of being in a room with both crush X and crush Y, and having a strange but still wonderful conversation with Crush X (conversations with X are always great anyway, because X is intelligent and kind and wonderful) which turned into X telling me (after me joking, "I don't want to be around Y, I'm going to get a crush on Y") all of the reasons that they think Y is great and crushes are great, and totally feeding my crush on Y until I'm just a big giant ball of squee.

And partly this is completely feeding my crush on X, firstly because X is really loyal and just open in their admiration for Y which is a really noble quality, and secondly because it seems like X wants me to be happy and recognises that feeding my squee is a source of happy? But it also feeds my crush on Y, because it feels like my crush has been legitimised, because there must be something good about Y in order to attract and keep the loyalty and respect of X, but also because the things that X told me about Y were quite squee-worthy and adorable.

But anyway, crushes are wonderful and squee is great and right now I just feel really happy and great and inspired and full of positivity and the world seems like a great place for having both X and Y in it. The world is so full of terrible things that can drag you down if you let them, is it really so terrible to just take joy and happiness from the uplift that a crush brings? Now I am going to shut up about it all, but I just could not help but sharing in the happy and joy that crush-squee brings for one tiny moment of your attention. Thanking you for your tolerance.

great crushes are great, no apology necessary

positive squee!!

Well, I mean, they are not crushes that are going to go anywhere, nor do I want them to be! (In fact, X has a girlfriend who is so great and amazing that I totally crush on her as well.) But it's just the kind of *lift* that having crushes can bring, in terms of making the world seem like a happier and more wonderful place.

I miss that feeling! I hope I have it again soon.

I say get joy wherever you can take it!

I have been listening to King Crimson's first album on repeat and organizing my house and it is bringing me some gentle joy. *zippa zap zorp zip&*

have yall ever heard of Philly's Pissed? I'm sure there are a lot of groups who do similar work, but they were a group of women in the Philadelphia area kind of loosely formed around the punk/DIY scene who responded to instances of sexual assault in their community. If a survivor didn't want to see or talk to their abuser in person, they would communicate with the perp for them (if that's what the survivor wanted); if they didn't want to go to their parents, or the cops, they would help them deal without doing those things. They basically existed to protect and support the survivor and enact their wishes. I think they got guff for enacting the wish of beating a rapist up once (uncorroborated and poss untrue! heard from a third party). anyway, i'm thinking about starting a group like this in my town. cause i'm not doing enough stuff (lol)

oh and also distributed mucho amazing literature like, how to work on your shit (for those who have crossed boundaries), what consent is, etc

most still exists online

http://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/3108714?access_key=key-233hntor7xmurvy1cd70

"We also facilitate survivors in figuring out what they need to feel safe, whole and in control of their lives again. For many survivors, though certainly not all, this involves taking some kind of action with regard to their assault. One popular strategy is for a survivor to create a list of "demands" for the perpetrator to meet. If a survivor is interested in creating a list of demands, we encourage them to envision what would make them feel safe and more in control of their lives again, and what would make them feel that the person who assaulted them is being held accountable for their actions. Demands might include that a perpetrator do self-education around consent, write a letter taking responsibility for the assault(s), examine their substance use, or leave spaces when the survivor is present. Frequently, if a survivor creates a list of demands, they will ask that someone from Philly Stands Up works with the perpetrator in ensuring that they meet the demands."

OK, that link has a massive big trigger warning on it, and I'm going to heed that right now and wait until I'm in a better place to read it, because I'm feeling very edge-of-tears this morning for other reasons.

This ---> what they need to feel safe, whole and in control of their lives again. I mean, when you find out what that is, let me know, because I don't seem to ever find that place.

This organisation sounds amazing, I wish something like that (had) existed here. I mean, yeah, why can't I take a page from Roxy's book and start one myself? Fear. I am afraid of everything, or rather, I am afraid of everyone. I get kind of overwhelmed when I read about the things that some of the women on this thread do (especially Roxy, Carl, LL, In Orbit) in terms of community work and getting involved in things. Like, I have so much respect for people who get off their encounter-suited butts and do something because I feel like a failure and a fraud for not doing it. (And it's not through lack of time at the moment, it is fear, social anxiety, terror of having to deal with people.)

I dunno, I'm kind of wondering: how do you do this? Not how do you find the time, but how do you find the people? How do you find the courage? (And this is speaking as someone who has to psych herself up most weeks to go to the Community Garden, and that's only something I can cope with on a regular basis because it is 75% dealing with plants, and 25% dealing with other human beings.)

I feel you on the fear, tbh. It's something I've overcome really slowly, but I'm only just recently able to work in groups that aren't bands - and one of my experiences in a band is maybe, partially what caused some of the fear. And even now I find myself afraid to speak up in groups, or find myself being bulldozed because I am too afraid to speak up when I'm angry, or whatever (see above). But I'm working on it. The courage comes in dribs and drabs, but honestly I have to force myself to attend everything that I attend - not just meetings or community organizing stuff, but shows, movies, parties. Everything! I don't really even fully understand why, myself, but I get scared to leave the house and just have to suck it up. I'm not really sure how the sucking up happens - I just know things will be worse (I'll feel more depressed, my social anxiety will not be allayed) if I don't go. People are always surprised when I say I'm afraid of social interaction so I guess I overcompensate!

We have this constant back and forth in the rock camp organizing group where i want to just take care of everything through a chain email, and they're like "we have to meet in person"

"scared to leave the house" is not really true - just feel like leaving takes a huge mental effort

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. It's like that psyching yourself up process of telling yourself it won't be as terrible as you've already decided it might be in your head.

(I mean, I had to give myself a pep talk to get myself to get up and go to the gig on Wednesday that I had been looking forward to for months, because I was afraid I would not be able to handle the social interactions! That's nuts, but how I am at the moment. So even more disinclined to go into ~unknown situations~ rather than situations already known to be pleasurable.)

((I am sometimes actually literally scared to leave the house, but that's a different kind of fear, usually related to there being strangers in the yard or weirdoes on my street.))

my husband just got angry and started a fight because....he did all the dishes and they were mostly mine

how terrible for him

smdh

there are days when I am convinced mr veg is deliberately takes the opposing view on everything with me bcz it's me doing the talking

last straw was when i was talking up the new star wars movie with great excitement & he says "meh star trek is way better"

this from a man who i know for a *fact* to be a massive star wars nerd

i yelled a LOT

i mean i have been slacking on cleaning for reasons he knows. ive been in a constant lupus flare for the last 10 days or so, and dealing with depression and emotional issues, stress - you'd think that me not cleaning anything and the house being completely fucked would make him realize how much shit i do, not like, "wow the house is dirty for the first time ever....im going to clean it for the first time it has ever been cleaned cause its never been dirty before, i deserve an award"

ok im exaggerating. just pissed. angry at the passive aggression. he does clean, but so do i. i dont deserve a lecture on cleaning bc i didnt do my dishes while i was sick!

that's what i resent most about housework, it's an act of undoing rather than doing, so the more you do it the less apparent it is and the only time it has any visibility is when there's a mess. which is strongly the case here right now.

i'm so sorry you are not well, roxy, chronic illness is hard to bear.

You know, there are times when I'm really lonely and would love to have a partner more than anything in the world.

Then there are times when I think "some wanker is gonna live in my house and complain when I don't do the dishes? FUCK THAT!"

Second shift, right there, y'all.

i have been enjoying a lot of irl girl talk these last few days with my visiting friends
having my words come out of my mouth and then vanish is so much better than typing that i wish there were a better way to describe it

I get kind of overwhelmed when I read about the things that some of the women on this thread do (especially Roxy, Carl, LL, In Orbit) in terms of community work and getting involved in things. Like, I have so much respect for people who get off their encounter-suited butts and do something because I feel like a failure and a fraud for not doing it. (And it's not through lack of time at the moment, it is fear, social anxiety, terror of having to deal with people.)

I dunno, I'm kind of wondering: how do you do this? Not how do you find the time, but how do you find the people? How do you find the courage?

For me, don't give me any credit for going out and talking to people and looking for opportunities to connect to them, because by and large, that's not work, that's ESSENTIAL to me. It's fun, it's energizing. Plus you know how I love a cause and a good, defensible set of convictions (and I'm happiest when I'm suffering--I blame religious upbringing).

I feel like I have the absolute most luxurious life right now that I can almost possibly imagine: I wake up when I want and watch the news (stimulation), cook and do correspondence and make appointments, and then I go to events & workshops where I cram my brain full of things (stimulation) and watch and listen to people and get my emotions involved (stimulation), and talk and socialize and interact (stimulation) and then I go home when I want and have almost total solitude when I get there and I am never bored, EVER. It's amazing. The only bad part will be figuring out how to make all this amazing stuff PAY ME MONEY in a way that I really really hope won't require tolerating too much boredom.

omg you and me both sis re: figuring out how to make fun stimulating life lucrative!

Seriously! I had a 2-hr mtg today with a campaign manager for a social justice non-profit and got offered the chance to head up/innovate some initiatives with an eye to running for an advisory board seat later this year. All volunteer, though. On one hand, fuck you pay me, but on the other hand I need their organizational legitimacy and A SEAT ON THE BOARD OMG. That is BOMB on a resume (and I believe deeply in their causes and would be able to direct their budding policy development so it's not just an authority perk).

The real payoff though was 2 solid hours of deep connection and agreement about movement work and connecting to ppl and developing them as leaders. If I could do that all the time FOR MONEY? Died and gone to heaven.

Some days I think, "Yeah, every millennial with a conscience wants a job that 'does good' and THEY have advanced degrees in law and public policy and experience as field organizers. YOU waited until age 37 to try to jump into this world that 25-year-olds are better at than you, and you think you're going to find someone to pay you in this market? Get real, idiot." And then some days I think, everyone just needs one connection that works out, and from there you can work with what you've got.

Today is one of the better days.

I dunno; my best friend (who lives in NYC) got a job working for her dream company (working in the field of reproductive health, in capacities she hugely believes in) and IIRC, she was on the other side of 40, and had been unemployed a long time when she finally got it. OTOH, she started in a support role and worked her way up, but has proved her value to the place over and over again, compared to the millennials whose parents buy them internships or whatever. So those jobs do exist, and regular people I personally know do get them.

But, personally, I just feel such a disconnect from everything you are saying. Like, the idea of a fun, stimulating life is so far from my experience right now I don't even know how to get back there. I'm coming up to a year unemployed now, and running out of hope faster than I'm running out of money. The idea of finding *any* kind of job, let alone a ~meaningful~ or stimulating one just seems so remote. Gonna try (probably unsuccessfully) not to be a downer and shut up about this. I am starting to feel the whole "what if I never actually work again?" the way that I started to feel "what if I really am never in a relationship again?" about 10 years ago, and the latter turned out to be a correct prediction, so, uh, *panic*. Because life is much harder to live without a job than without a partner. But I guess I just have to try to think about all of the women (and there are lots in my family) who went on to interesting and stimulating careers in the second half of their lives, when they were in their 50s or even 60s (my Mum got her lifelong dream job in her late 60s!)

I kinda have to keep stepping back and reminding myself, no matter how useless I feel at the moment, like, all of the things I have managed to do with this year off. Even if none of them was "saving the world" or whatever, I still did a lot of necessary travelling and reconnecting with distant loved ones, I wrote a Proper Novel, I did a whole column plus illustrations for a magazine I really love. I have not just lain in bed the whole year with a pillow over my head, which is what it sometimes feels like I've done. But none of those things are lucrative, either.

It's just hard, because IO, when I see you describing "going out and talking to people and looking for opportunities to connect" as essential fun, rather than work, it just makes me feel like a space alien. But then I just have to remind myself, no, you are just an extrovert, and extroverts derive energy and happiness from contact with other people. And I am just an extreme introvert, and we're all different and we're all allowed to be.

roxymuzak just wanted to pipe up in here that I hope you are feeling better, and much love and warmth to you, and that if I were in Knoxville I'd definitely come clean your house. <3