big hoos & owenf watch 'battlestar galactica' and no one talks abt eps they haven't seen yet

I like that it was pretty clear that the wormhole aliens were never actually gods, but just a non-corporeal species that the Bajorans thought controlled everything. Stupid Bajorans.

Overall, definitely better than BSG, but I'm biased towards it, it's one of my favorite TV series ever.

At first it seemed clear they was just wormhole aliens, but later on in that series between that and them being gods started to get blurry, especially when Sisko himself started to believe in their prophecies. And the Pah-Wraiths were essentially treated as demons: they could posssess bodies with possessed person's voice and eyes changing like in Ghostbusters, they were able to live inside objects and get free when the object was broken, they could be summoned with a spellbook (which needed to be anointed with blood), etc. So by the end, even if the Prophets were still technically wormhole aliens and Pah-Wraiths were corrupted wormhole aliens, in practice they were treated like good and evil gods in a fantasy story... Which I don't think fits Star Trek at all, since Star Trek is all about shades of gray. Even the Dominion turned out to be not beyond redemption!

And that, I think, was the biggest problem with the gods in both DS9 and BSG. Both series are very much about morally imperfect beings, not about good vs. evil, so inserting god/gods who are (by definition) always right into those stories is ill-fitting.

"but later on in the series the line between that and them being gods"

As aggravating as the ending was, I think BSG overall did the moral ambiguity and terrorism themes better than DS9, since they didn't have the constraints of the ST universe on them. I agree that both series kind of mucked up the idea of using these Gods in the endgame.

BSG overall did the moral ambiguity and terrorism themes better than DS9

I'm not so sure about this? IMO, for a Star Trek show, DS9 was pretty bold in exploring the morality of its main characters, especially Kira. (Though Sisko did some pretty dodgy things too, like at the end of the Maquis arc, and in "In the Pale Moonlight") There were several eps where Kira's terrorist past came back to haunt him, including the one where a survivor of her resistance cell's attacks took revenge on them. And as dramatic as the New Caprica arc in BSG was, I think its effect as a terrorist analogue was lessened by the fact that, A) all Cylons on New Caprica were essentially enemy combatants, there were no "civilian" Cylons, and B) at this point the Cylons couldn't really die. Okay, the Cardassians in DS9 (especially the ones who took part in the occupation of Bajor) were mostly treated as an evil empire, but the show did have its fair share of sympathetic Cardassians, and it was made clear that the attacks carried out by the Bajoran resistance cells had civilian casualties too. That was the whole point of the aforementioned revenge episode.

I guess if there's a lesson to be learned it's that you shouldn't bring theology into sci-fi?

There are loads of counter-examples of this in SF literature (by far the best medium for proper SF imo), off the top of my head I suggest you read Olaf Stapledon's astounding Star Maker.

But yeah if you want to examine these themes via the medium of spaceships probably best to think through exactly what your point is before you start bringing god into it (nb not seen DS9).

Yeah, I was gonna add a qualifier that "you shouldn't bring theology into sci-fi into mainstream audiovisual sci-fi", but forgot. I guess the problem with BSG and DS9 is not that they feature god/gods per se, but that the gods are used only as simplistic plot devices. In the former, god serves as a literal deus ex machina, and in the latter, while the "gods"/wormhole aliens are shown to do some dodgy things (particularly with Sisko's mother), in the end their plotline boils down to a simple "good gods versus evil gods" conflict. I don't think either series had any long-term plan when they first introduced their theological elements, which may be why (like you said) they end up with such stupid results.

Kubrick's 2001 does a more than serviceable job of incorporating religious themes (or at least, religious experience, although I definitely tried to interpret the film along theological lines when I was a young'un). Granted Kubrick is exceptional, the vast majority of film/TV sci-fi doesn't even bother and perhaps that's all for the best. otoh WHO MOURNS FOR ADONIS?

i am basically doing what hoos was doing 2 years ago. i'm currently at season 2, episode 2, so i read the thread until a hoos was at that moment, then stopped reading.

the smash-cut w/timpanis at the start of every ep, what's that about? Idgi

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Thursday, April 5, 2012 8:29 PM (2 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^

ugh I know, you get the little 'they have a plan bit' then the 'last week' then the bit of actual real show (with no indicator of when it's started) and then the title, the the timpanis and episode spoilers.

there are a LOT of cheering/back slapping moments.

Not entirely sure how down I am with 'frack' yet. Don't think I ever will be.

i have been a little 420'd out while watching but can i just say that i LOVE the template for the opening of each episode? "The Cylons were created by man. They evolved. They rebelled. There are many copies. And they have a plan." to a quick flashback, then a present-day scene opener, THEN the opening credits/music, THEN the intense flash-forward to the upcoming events of the episode, THEN it starts. takes about 10 minutes every time and i love the predictable rhythm of it. it's so comforting.

i really hate "frack". i will never be down with frack.

otm

frak is awful. it makes them sound like kids at the dinner table using euphemistic pseudo-swears in front of their parents, so self-conscious.

season 2 is excellent, probably the series at its best imo.

there is something about this show that's worse than frack.

WTF is up with the hotshot pilots (who i like!) moonlighting as interrogators? even putting aside the torture stuff, it's just weird! in the next episode is it going to be revealed that they also serve as the ship's dry cleaning team? the whole thing comes across like a middle school play where some kid got sick the night before the performance so the lead has to play two different roles and wear a charlie chaplin fake mustache

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheMainCharactersDoEverything

has to play two different roles

mmm

hahaha
ok, yes, i know that sounds ridiculous in the context of the show, but

I'M NOT A CYLON OK

but someone on ILX is. but i'm not sure who just yet.

It's me.

I know because I have a plan.

So pissed that this came down off of netflix. I was casually going along watching it and then when I heard they were taking it down I ramped up my watching a whole ton, hoping to squeeze everything in. But I threw in the towel somewhere just before the end of season 2.

lucky you

But end of season 2/beginning of season 3 is the peak.

yeah I agree actually just being snarky

as long as you don't get as far as the watchtower

i'm up to battlesode S02E16. in general i'm still enjoying the show a lot, but i'm starting to notice a lot more flaws and annoying things, and the eyeroll-to-battlesode ratio is increasing at condition 1-worthy rates.

the particular way that religion is used to drive the story is annoying. i'm cool with the quest for earth, but i don't like how it's actually executed. there's no logic to it. there are a series of episodes in season 2 that essentially serve as rpg-style fetch quests - first you must find the mystic arrow of apollo! (an episode or two is dedicated to this quest. everyone levels up). NOW, you must take the arrow of apollo to the legendary tomb, whose location is unknown! (an episode or two is dedicated to this quest. everyone levels up). it's just really lame. there's no logic to what they're doing, they're just following scripture, and so there's zero satisfaction when they actually accomplish their goals. i want the arrow to accidentally guide them to venus and kill the exploration ship so that everyone decides to renounce the religion all at once.

why did they change the theme song from season 1? the new theme song is terrible.

from what i understand, one of the last battlesodes i watched (s2e14) is regarded as the very worst. it's the one that introduces two women that lee has fallen in love with, only one of them only exists in about 3 or 4 seconds of footage that gets chopped up and shown about 30-40 times during the hour. the whole thing depends on making you care about these relationships with lee, but they never bother to provide any context or background, and i'm almost certain we'll never see either of his spurned lovers again. it doesn't help that they seemed to have rented out a replacement director from a 1992 episode of one life to live to take charge - the look and feel, pace, editing, everything is embarrassing. battlesode s2e15 is similarly bad in that it's a detour that doesn't do anything to advance the plot.

i love this show!

yeah there are a handful of one-off episodes that apparently the network was pushing them to do but by and large they all suck and are stupid. I remember Scar being one of the better ones. The boxing one is lol.

also *spoilerz* the fact that the president was saved using *controversial* embryonic stem cell research is so lol mid-2000s.

did they have a Terry Schiavo episode I forget

They had an abortion episode, but I don't think they had a Tery Schiavo episode.

The one about Lee's tender, deep, totally unexplored love affair with a random space prostitute is dreadful (maybe s2e14?).

I think I blocked a fair number of these from my memory

I remember the abortion one - which was at least tangentially relevant to a steadily declining refugee population but yeah most of them are better left forgotten

oh, "Black Market". you the worst

It's true, this show is basically an RPG. Apollo in particular spends a lot of time experimenting with the job system.

Yeah Black Market. That was the one that was truly dreadful.

also pretty much the entire BSG crew has been in a situation where one or more people are holding a gun to their heads. lee alone has had a gun pointed him at least 30 times at this point. they don't even look nervous anymore

haha they use that trope more and more as the show goes on - so many cliffhangers with guns pointed

the last season probably has like 50 mexican standoffs

tbf karl you are getting to the very best part imo

i imagine that by the fourth season:

- "previously on battlestar galactica" - shots of intense good/bad/ugly-style showdown, guns drawn and pointed at all participants
- battlesode commences; lee, helo, and sharon are all pointing guns at each other and shouting. suddenly a door slams open. a three new gun barrels enter the room, pointed at lee, helo, and sharon, but we can't see who is holding them just yet
- future vision stream! scenes from the forthcoming episode - closeups of guns drawn and people shouting at each other. sweat
- battlesode commences for real this time
- we finally see who is entering the room. turns out the new arrivals are ANOTHER set of three people with guns drawn on each other. this time it's the XO, starbuck, and the chief. the chief points the gun at the XO, who points his gun at starbuck, who points her gun at the chief. as they shuffle into the new room, they notice the situation with lee, helo, and sharon, and react accordingly. the XO points his other weapon at lee, starbuck targets sharon, and the chief targets helo. lee, helo, and sharon respond in kind with their extra weapons.
- paranoia. more sweat. it's getting hot. shouting.
- the two triangle shaped standoffs have coalesced into a hexagon showdown. but the temperature is positively suffocating. they agree to move to a larger room - but the door is too small! (commercial)
- they unpack their hexagon showdown to a single file line. this is difficult because they need to be arranged so that each participant is surrounded by two potential enemies. the argument about who is or is not a Cylon transforms into an argument about how the formation should change. (commercial)
- they finally emerge into a larger room and resume their hexagon showdown shape. but the cylons attack and it's condition 1 so they all have to go back to their stations so that they can be ready to point their gun at someone else's head

Don't forget flashbacks to troubling memories from someone's past.

the particular way that religion is used to drive the story is annoying. i'm cool with the quest for earth, but i don't like how it's actually executed. there's no logic to it.

I don't want to spoil anything, but you should ne prepared to feel this way a lot more as the series goes on... :(

"ne" = "be"

yeah, i'm definitely expecting/dreading it.

There's a transcript somewhere of a roundtable with a lot of the cast and writers that they did while the show was still going. As I recall, Jaime Bamber very forcefully argued that the show had made a terrible mistake humanizing the Cylons, and basically everyone agreed that "33" was the high point of the show and they were never going to do anything that worked quite as well.

that sounds too good to be true

I doubt "it was all downhill from the first episode" was a genuinely popular opinion to espouse on-set

33 definitely was the most effective episode. It's too bad, they probably could have done a few episodes about that first crucial flight from the Cylons.

just finished rapture (season 3, battlesode 12).

so everyone is super religious now. fuck. one one hand it occasionally leads to interesting results. i don't mind the cylon religious stuff so much, with lucy lawless trying to see the faces of the five, and gaius on his messianic journey (i enjoy thinking about his entire storyline as taking place entirely in his narcissistic genius mind, insanely eating itself). but chief having a religious experience while searching for the eye of jupiter? barf sandwich. and even seemingly non-religious characters like lee buying into it (the whole intense firefight with the cylons is necessary because they're trying to stall while chief searches for a religious icon). it's just really, really bad, and as the show goes on it dedicates more and more time to it.

i don't ask for much. i only want three things. i want to watch adama and his crew battle/run away from cylons. i want to watch the cylons do things on their (super bright, oversaturated) ship. i want to watch the humans and cylons struggle with themselves over what it means to be having babies together. that's it. i rue the day that roslin saw the light. i hate watching chief gradually turn into the vice-president of his local Promisekeepers group. i hate learning that starbuck is a cosmic gamechanger foretold by scripture. i hate listening to lee bark out "we have to hold this position til chief finds the eye of jupiter!!!" to the people around him without him following up with "...wait am i high? wtf are we doing here"

i know i'm repeating myself. sorry.

has anyone seen Caprica?

Yes. It was okay, and then it got canceled.