Sasha on Shadow, Diplo, Eminem & Minstrelsy

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Sasha has never said anything thats made me think about music in a different way. He's cool to quote for upper east side yuppie's. "SFJ laid out grime today. Lets go sip our lattes and discuss it"...Bleeech!

Jockey, Friday, 27 May 2005 17:21 (eighteen years ago) link

...Oh, and Ui was terrible...

Jockey, Friday, 27 May 2005 17:21 (eighteen years ago) link

well its critics' fault that people bother ripping off middlebrow "class"

as caught up in my profession as I can get, I tend to think that if an artist makes a decision, good or lousy, it's actually the artist's fault.

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Friday, 27 May 2005 17:22 (eighteen years ago) link

well obviously the artist is who gets an F, but I like to think culture plays a bit of responsibility in shaping people's value systems.

miccio (miccio), Friday, 27 May 2005 17:36 (eighteen years ago) link

culture at large isn't the same as critics, though. your target was a fairly specific one. (which is fine--specificity is good. just not this time as much.)

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Friday, 27 May 2005 17:38 (eighteen years ago) link

gets an F?

are you you? or that other one?

charltonlido (gareth), Friday, 27 May 2005 17:38 (eighteen years ago) link

we're not talking about culture at large but subcultural artists (i.e. people who would bother ripping off Elvis Costello). And I think critics have done a lot to canonize 'worthwhile' influences and define what musicians should aspire to.

miccio (miccio), Friday, 27 May 2005 17:40 (eighteen years ago) link

yeah, you're right about that. but critics codify lots of things; it's the job. those things are already there to be codified. so I tend to go with "culture" before "critics," not least because as one of the latter it just seems too self-aggrandizing. (though given that Naive Teen Idol called my penchant for self-promotion out on the James Brown thread just now I should probably not worry too much about the latter, eh?)

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Friday, 27 May 2005 17:43 (eighteen years ago) link

It might just be structural, actually -- you leave these guys in a room with their equipment, and their way of making music move is this kind of sample-based "composition," a perfectly valid and long-running (and "white") way of making instrumental music. Whereas making a beat for someone else to deal with doesn't require scripting compositional movement -- that gets done (in a more "black" way) by the singer or rapper. That seems to be where black/white vulnerability issues come in: it's easy to use machinery to deal with music you don't feel entirely part of, background-wise, but a whole different thing to have to enact and perform it on the mic level. The guys may make those composition albums for banal structural reasons, but there's something about it that kind of reflects on the race issue.

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 27 May 2005 17:47 (eighteen years ago) link

not to mention that they're not making backing tracks for rappers and can explore the depths of the illusions of their minds < /Doug Henning>

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Friday, 27 May 2005 17:48 (eighteen years ago) link

But "culture" (paging Raymond Williams) is defined largely by critics – the relationship between artistic totems and consumers; a lot of times consumers misconstrue critics' intentions and act snootier and less catholic than critics.

Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Friday, 27 May 2005 17:50 (eighteen years ago) link

what's weird about this is that none of it really sells or garners even a decent-sized cult audience. or does it? I can't think of any examples that did offhand, at least. happy to be proven wrong, though, as always.

Selling on what level, though? On the level of the artists they remix? I mean, Shadow and RJD2 seem to do fairly well.

jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 27 May 2005 17:51 (eighteen years ago) link

it's easy to use machinery to deal with music you don't feel entirely part of, background-wise, but a whole different thing to have to enact and perform it on the mic level.

Can 'machinery' be replaced with 'instruments' and have the statement still be true?

Jordan (Jordan), Friday, 27 May 2005 17:54 (eighteen years ago) link

RJD2 is actually a good example of someone who sells, by which I mean moderately well--let's say around 50,000 per album, which is only a guess, I don't have hard numbers or anything. having records that don't go out of print might be a good shorthand for what I'm trying to get at here.

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Friday, 27 May 2005 17:56 (eighteen years ago) link

Prefuse 73?

jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 27 May 2005 17:59 (eighteen years ago) link

I tend to think of P73 as more glitchy and less overtly cinematic, but the template is similar enough. now that I think of it, there's loads of folks who apply here. and whose records stay in print. so everything I said earlier was full of shit! (not a new thing!)

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Friday, 27 May 2005 18:02 (eighteen years ago) link

Re-reading, the reason I made that comment was that the artists Nabisco mentioned (Blockhead, Diplo) seem/ed to be getting a pretty meh reception (from me, I mean, but also from music friends and the larger serious-music-folks population). At least it seems that way. I might be wrong, though.

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Friday, 27 May 2005 18:09 (eighteen years ago) link

(I'm referring to the Diplo album, not Diplo's mixtapes or collaborations et al, btw.)

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Friday, 27 May 2005 18:14 (eighteen years ago) link

I think instruments fall about halfway, Jordan; there's still this aspect of standing at the front of a stage and doing something physical, something kind of real-time and performative. Those background insecurities would still come into it, to a certain extent. The issue's kind of fudged, though, by the fact that the kinds of "black" music that provoke those background insecurities don't involve lots of live instrumentation -- apart from clearly-"background" session players on the risers behind an r&b singer, maybe.

Maybe Diplo is a good test-case in what I'm thinking about here: how do you think it would work if, instead of associating with M.I.A., he was making a record with a white rapper or vocalist from Philly? How would it have worked in process, and how would the reception have gone?

(NB Matos the Diplo album was maybe further marred by being a little boring, even within the post-Shadow genre.)

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 27 May 2005 18:20 (eighteen years ago) link

That's sort of what I was thinking, Nabisco. It rings a lot of bells for me. The whole point of my brass band (an anomaly in that it's an almost entirely black genre of music that is based on 100% live instrumentation), in a way, is not to sound "white". And while I think playing horns and drums is way more involved and less "distanced" than dj'ing/producing, we still don't rap on our songs because it wouldn't sound right.

Jordan (Jordan), Friday, 27 May 2005 18:24 (eighteen years ago) link

Does RJD2 sell 50k?

based on this - http://www.indiana.edu/~teleweb/T101/independent.html - El-P says Fantastic Damage sold less than 50k in a year, surely RJD2's audience is smaller than that.

milozauckerman (miloaukerman), Friday, 27 May 2005 18:26 (eighteen years ago) link

I would not be surprised in the least if Deadringer sold more than Fan Dam. It seemed like it have crossed over to non-undie hop audiences way more, got a little bit of club play, etc.

Jordan (Jordan), Friday, 27 May 2005 18:28 (eighteen years ago) link

the first few sentences of that piece are so out-of-control wrong, I stopped reading.

Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 27 May 2005 18:29 (eighteen years ago) link

I mean calling the Beastie Boys a band that "a lot of people care about" and that "sticks to one genre" is highly dubious.

Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 27 May 2005 18:31 (eighteen years ago) link

haha wow yeah I missed the "sticks to one genre" line. OTM.

miccio (miccio), Friday, 27 May 2005 18:33 (eighteen years ago) link

I would not be surprised in the least if Deadringer sold more than Fan Dam. It seemed like it have crossed over to non-undie hop audiences way more

That's my inclination, too. Doesn't anyone here subscribe to the SoundScan database? This is like the millionth thread when we've tried to guess the relative sales figures of particular albums.

jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 27 May 2005 18:35 (eighteen years ago) link

Also, since when are Brazilians "black"?

Jesse Dorris (rubber gloves), Friday, 27 May 2005 18:38 (eighteen years ago) link

AllHipHop.com: Do you feel a need to try and reinvent yourself with each future album?

RJD2: Definitely. I felt like I've played the consistency game. After Dead Ringer came out, there was the Soul Position record, the Diverse album, the Aceyalone record, all this s**t I did was basically normal Rap music, where I was doing this simple Rap beat thing and it was fun and cool, 95 beats per minute, chop your s**t up, whatever. F***in' moron music. I like it, but it's still moron music. When it came down for this record, it's like, what's the point of re-recording some other s**t? It would be cheap of me. I couldn't be honest. This record is as honest as I can be in terms of just sitting down and saying "This is what I feel." If I had tried to do another Dead Ringer, it would've just been a marketing gimmick to me. It might have gotten better reviews but that's not what it's about. I understand if people think, "Oh this s**t's soft or corny." At the end of the day, I don't get bent out of shape about it. This is at least a representation of the music that I like.

Jordan (Jordan), Friday, 27 May 2005 18:41 (eighteen years ago) link

a lot of brazilians are "black," jesse.

s1ocki (slutsky), Friday, 27 May 2005 18:43 (eighteen years ago) link

yeesh.

s1ocki (slutsky), Friday, 27 May 2005 18:43 (eighteen years ago) link

man rjd2 and buck 65 should get together (and leave the rest of us alone)

s1ocki (slutsky), Friday, 27 May 2005 18:44 (eighteen years ago) link

still, implying that Brazilian music is "black" music is *ahem* again, highly dubious.

Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 27 May 2005 18:45 (eighteen years ago) link

implying that it's not black at all is just as dubious.

s1ocki (slutsky), Friday, 27 May 2005 18:46 (eighteen years ago) link

What are you guys, George Bush? There's more African blood in Brazil than in the US, and if the favela stuff is anywhere as near in touch with the actual slums as everyone says, then a good proportion of fans and artists alike are going to be black.

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 27 May 2005 18:47 (eighteen years ago) link

"Also, since when are Brazilians "black"?"

Uh, some are, some aren't.

steve-k, Friday, 27 May 2005 18:48 (eighteen years ago) link

I mean, sadly, like everywhere else, that's a lot of who's living in the slums, you know?

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 27 May 2005 18:48 (eighteen years ago) link

I was gonna mention the Bush thing, too, but a quick glance at Snopes shows that he possibly never said it.

jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 27 May 2005 18:48 (eighteen years ago) link

it's just a stupid, poorly thought out example - bringing in Baile Funk, carioca, etc. in a discussion of American racial politics just clouds the issue because racial issues/identity in Brazil are clearly demonstrably different than racial issues/identity in America.

Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 27 May 2005 18:50 (eighteen years ago) link

"we still don't rap on our songs because it wouldn't sound right."
-Jordan
Hey Jordan, maybe if you practiced rapping as much as you do playing brass it would sound right!

steve-k, Friday, 27 May 2005 18:52 (eighteen years ago) link

"it's just a stupid, poorly thought out example - bringing in Baile Funk, carioca, etc. in a discussion of American racial politics just clouds the issue because racial issues/identity in Brazil are clearly demonstrably different than racial issues/identity in America."

Oh bullshit.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 27 May 2005 18:53 (eighteen years ago) link

From SF/J's on site retort to this thread:

the biggest internet dud of all time is "This shit has been covered." Maybe for you and your three friends, but not for a whole lot of intelligent people who are busy thinking about other things. And—please put this on your refrigerator if you give a shit about these things–I am not writing for your three interfriends, nor will I ever. These ideas want to circulate in the big, bad bloodstream and will, I think, read as news to many people.

He's wrong if he thinks he didn't write it for my three interfriends at least - they all went to EMP!

miccio (miccio), Friday, 27 May 2005 18:54 (eighteen years ago) link

Wow, John, I'm impressed that you fact-check yourself like that! Now I know who to believe on here.

Shakey, I don't think it's irrelevant, not if the issue is really -- as I'm kind of banging on about -- this anxiety about having the background that your music "belongs" to. There's a big difference in character between a middle-class white person dealing in American black music and dealing in Brazilian lower-class/black music, but the dynamics of them do have something to do with one another.

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 27 May 2005 18:56 (eighteen years ago) link

a white American "stealing" Brazilian music /= Elvis' appropriation of the sound of "race" records.

x-post

Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 27 May 2005 18:57 (eighteen years ago) link

What Anthony refers to.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 27 May 2005 18:59 (eighteen years ago) link

(xpost)Oh yeah you're right. When you completely fuck up the analogy it doesn't work at all.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 27 May 2005 19:00 (eighteen years ago) link

Wow, John, I'm impressed that you fact-check yourself like that!

Haha, well, I was looking for the exact quote, and that came up. But it's also probably a by-product of fact-checking and copy-editing for a living.

jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 27 May 2005 19:02 (eighteen years ago) link

NB that RJD2 quote is really depressing, and makes me glad I've never really dug tons of his stuff: I'm talking "distance," and this guy has actual contempt for a lot of his output! Which is fine, I guess -- nothing wrong with paying the bills one way and doing your own thing another -- but there's something pretty awkward about it.

Dude, Shakey, it doesn't have to be about stealing and ownership; it's a lot more interesting if you think about it from the perspective of where people artists feel comfortable. From that perspective the mythical inner city and the even-more-mythical Rio slum are equally outside the immediate circle, you know? Jordan's voice thing is dead-on -- they can do the brass, but they have some self-consciousness that if they bring in their own voices it might not sound right, won't have the same quality as what they're playing, might even (to put words in his mouth) have fake or awkward qualities. Similarly: how would people react if Diplo, instead of just making some baile-inspired beats, actually tried to rap like that?

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 27 May 2005 19:03 (eighteen years ago) link

I mean, the voice is where we locate a whole lot of the background-authenticity baggage we bring to music. In an ideal theoretical world, there'd be nothing wrong with an American white person listening to baile funk and wanting to use his voice the same way; in our world, it'd be pretty damn vexed.

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 27 May 2005 19:06 (eighteen years ago) link

"From that perspective the mythical inner city and the even-more-mythical Rio slum are equally outside the immediate circle, you know?"

I don't think so. One is a community that's in your own backyard and may actually come after you over perceived injustices/thievery - while the other is distant and (probably) completely oblivious. The difference in the power politics of either scenario is self-evident.

x-post

Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 27 May 2005 19:09 (eighteen years ago) link

Nabisco OTM.

Jordan (Jordan), Friday, 27 May 2005 19:11 (eighteen years ago) link

Makes me think of when eminem started producing and people were like, God this is funkless. But maybe he was just embracing his whiteness lol. Message seems to be, everyone should just stick to their own. If that gets rid of Iggy azaleas shtick then great, but pushed to extremes, it seems pretty limiting.

candyman, Sunday, 3 January 2021 08:49 (three years ago) link


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