Is ADHD a real disorder?

Also: yes ADD is real, it has to do with certain neural pathways not being connected or something. I know that Ritalin does have a calming effect on me so that I concentrate more, although I don't have the "hyperactive" variant thank God. And I don't eat much sugar/junk food.

also makes me want to make posts saying "see i'm not just lazy and undisciplined, it's SCIENCE". (i was serious about that stuff though. repeatable studies scientific consensus yadda yadda.)

x-post

I used to run 5 miles a day. I biked a 100k once. I was working two jobs, keeping the second mostly because it was fun. And because it was at a brewery, so I got free beer. I was very active. I was about to get a big promotion at my computer job. ...And then I got a virus, and it (or its hormonal/neurological/immunological aftermath) pretty much derailed my life.

So I'd just like to second Trayce's "fuck you", and heartily.

There's lots of health conditions that aren't well understood. Lots of people tend to be judgemental assholes about them. Before the docs had medical evidence for Multiple Sclerosis, they called it "hysterical paralysis". Because naturally if they can't understand an illness, it's all in your head or you're just lazy. That was probably 50 years ago or more, but people's tendency to be closed minded bastards is still going strong.

that's why i never used the term, "therapist", as i considered it too loaded.

instead, i used "talky pshrink" and "drug-pushing pshrink."

also, using street drug-terms to refer to your meds makes them easier to handle.

That's science for you.

I was once fairly energetic, as per the poster above, but I got glandular fever many years ago, since which time, I am a lot less energetic, and tend to tire quickly and easily.

guilty as charged
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/kenjuggle/vogue.jpg

Tell me more about *adult* ADHD.

I just did a checklist thingy and the checklist says I might have it, but I always doubt the results of these things (if you unconsciously want to prove to yourself that you do have a disorder, you'll tick the numbers up a bit higher and vice versa).

I am a habitually messy, disorganized person, and I am easily distracted. I have trouble finishing projects, I procrastinate heavily, make tasks take way longer than they need to, and often feel "overwhelmed by the basic tasks of daily life" and all that.

uh oh... that also sounds like me. but can't these things be attributed just to one's basic personality type, rather than a 'disorder'?

A 'disorder' is not an illness - it's not a construct that can either 'exist' or not. So while I'm sure no-one's doubting the myriad symptoms of what is known as ADD/ADHD are real, the contention is whether it's beneficial, to anyone, to treat it as a mental illness (DSM-IV).

ADD/ADHD cannot exist clinically without empirical biological / neurological evidence to support its existence (see: schizophrenia etc), which is why the DSM is quick to present it as a disorder (see: passive agressive syndrome (DSM-III), female sexual dysfunction etc.)

Problem-focussed checklists (DSM, internet) are never, ever a good way to help somebody.

Frankly, the dark hand of big pharma has always hovered over diagnosis of this kind. And at the end of day, is actually it useful? Label kids, drug'em up etc. God I sound like Tom Cruise.

I sort of agree, but hardly a kid at 27.

yeah, it worries me that so many parents seem so quick to drug their kids up, rather than dealing with their behaviour from a psychological angle. i'm certainly not opposed to chemical intervention, i just think that huey's right about the financial motivations behind some of the over-prescribing that seems to be going on. drugs should be a last resort, not a quick fix.

hurting, are you considering seeing a doctor/psychologist about this stuff?

Drug me drug me drug me drug me
Drug me with natural vitamin c
Drug me with pharmaceutical speed
Drug me with your sleeping pills
Drug me with your crossword puzzles
Drug me with your magazines
Drug me with your fuck machines
With a fountain of fads
More rock and roll ads
Drug me drug me drug me me me

ADHD, which is characterized by hyperactivity, disorganization, impulsivity, emotionality, unstable personality, fidgetiness, and inability to relax (2,3), has been reported to be present in 17 percent to 40 percent of various cocaine-dependent populations (1,2,4,5). Less well known is the fact that cocaine modifies these symptoms, thus making it more difficult to correctly diagnose such patients. We have reported that one reliable indicator of the presence of ADHD among adult cocaine-dependent subjects is the history of a "paradoxical" reaction to cocaine use (1). A carefully obtained clinical history confirms that despite eventual deterioration as cocaine dependence develops, patients with ADHD initially derive symptomatic improvement from the use of cocaine and may resort to this readily available stimulant for self-medication (1,6).

Instead of the excitation (4) and exacerbation of psychiatric symptoms (7) observed in cocaine-using populations without ADHD, cocaine induces a constellation of beneficial effects in the ADHD population; they include relaxation, anxiolysis, mood stabilization, improved focus and ability to think, and increased capacity to engage in productive activity, all in the relative absence of a euphoric response (1,4). Whether some individuals with ADHD could continue to use cocaine for symptomatic relief without actually abusing it has not been investigated, although it appears unlikely.

^^^^

V V TRUE

ahhhh... i always thought it was weird that ritalin had a calming effect on ADHD/ADD ppl, but a complete speed effect on me and my friends when we tried it years ago (damn, that was an awesome night).

XPOST: Big kids = bigger market </cynicism>

I am a habitually messy, disorganized person, and I am easily distracted. I have trouble finishing projects, I procrastinate heavily, make tasks take way longer than they need to, and often feel "overwhelmed by the basic tasks of daily life" and all that.

This is precisely what I mean - we're taught to focus on 'negative' aspects of our personality as though they're somehow bad. We've been sold the idea that there's a 'norm' we must all subscribe to - that's the very essence of psychiatry, for example.

Why is procrastination bad? Or being mildly disorganised? If you're overwhelmed, why isn't that a problem with your situation / environment, rather than a problem with you? What about looking for solution-focussed (i.e. positive) elements to those areas that you're struggling with?

Others may disagree, but please don't go down the psychiatric route. You'll only end up making that diagnosis / label part of your personality, as it were - and therefore another negative aspect. It's also a very vicious cycle to get out of (see: people disagnosed with depression, borderline personality disorder etc).

A decent psychologist (i.e. non-medical model, no conflicts of interest etc) should be able to help you gain some perspective on those aspects you're feeling uncomfortable with.

xpost...so what you're saying is that hurting 2 should do some coke so he can self-diagnose? ;)

This is precisely what I mean - we're taught to focus on 'negative' aspects of our personality as though they're somehow bad. We've been sold the idea that there's a 'norm' we must all subscribe to - that's the very essence of psychiatry, for example. Why is procrastination bad? Or being mildly disorganised? If you're overwhelmed, why isn't that a problem with your situation / environment, rather than a problem with you? What about looking for solution-focussed (i.e. positive) elements to those areas that you're struggling with?

Sorry, but this is bullshit. First of all, I am seeing a very good psychoanalyst who generally disfavors medication. He is helping me with a lot of things, but not with these particular problems. These problems have held me back in every area of my life, including wreaking havoc on my college transcript. And in fact I've seen therapists for much of the last 10 years, and in spite of great progress in my self-confidence and romantic life, I've made only marginal progress in this.

Procrastination and disorganization are real problems. They can lead to career and marriage failure, depression, feelings of wasted potential and missed opportunities. Fuck, if I wanted to of course I could "change my environment" instead - I could go live on some commune or something. But that isn't what I want.

I have the Adult ADD. It sucks.

Do you take meds?

if I wanted to of course I could "change my environment" instead. I could go live on some commune or something

You have utterly missed my point, but congratulations on calling bullshit.

And in fact I've seen therapists for much of the last 10 years

What I actually recommended was a decent psychologist - i.e. not a cash-cow 'therapist' who charges money for you talk shit about yourself.

They were "decent psychologists," dude. Which is exactly why I call bullshit - you don't know me at all, you're just pushing your agenda

I MEAN DO YOU HONESTLY FUCKING THINK I'VE NEVER THOUGHT OF THIS STUFF BEFORE LIKE DO YOU THINK IT'S NEVER OCCURRED TO ANYONE BUT YOU THAT BEHAVIORAL DISORDERS ARE "CONSTRUCTS" YOU BULLSHIT COLLEGE FUCK? FUCK OFF!

Mate, if you look at the tone of what I originally wrote you'll see I was just giving explaining, in friendly terms, my standpoint based my own hellish experiences. It certainly wasn't aimed at you, although I obviously made a mistake quoting something you wrote. Apologies.

Uh, yeah, I apologize for that as well. It's just that I've been struggling with these problems for much of my life. I've tried medication-free approaches and I've tried avoiding the labeling of any disorder. In fact I've never gone on any medication or deliberately gone for any kind of disorder evaluation. I'm aware of all of the philosophical and epistemological problems of psychiatric diagnosis.

But I also know that there are certain people who clearly have a serious problem they cannot entirely control. In extreme cases this sometimes leads to suicide. I knew a guy whose parents ignored his psychiatrist's severe bipolar diagnosis and he wound up firing a gun into traffic from his car and driving into a bus. I'm not expecting to drive into any buses, but I do think *disorders* can be quite real at the same time as being constructs.

hurting 2, i don't think huey was pushing any agenda except trying to offer some kind of concerned advice - which is kinda what you were asking for, right?

when i offered up the suggestion that these things are just aspects of 'personality types' i didn't mean to marginalise how shitty it must be for you to be going through all this. obviously, you explained your situation in more detail in later posts, so now i can see that you really feel these symptoms (or whatever the word for it is) have the potential to fuck up your life if you don't sort them out.

Yeah, exactly, I'm obviously not saying that the 'disorders' and their associated symptoms - paranoia, voices, depression, tiredness, intrusive thoughts etc - are not real in any way. All I'm saying is that it's often unhelpful to diagnose, label and prescribe using the current medical model, and I believe it's important that people - not you H2 - are aware of this when going to the GP, having a few symptoms ticked in a box, and being given a 'scrip for some ineffectual drug. I have no idea how the system works in the US - I'm talking from a UK / Australia perspective.

95% of the people being treated for clinical depression in the UK would benefit from some sort of concurrent psychotherapy, which they don't get. It's the pathologising of emotional peaks and troughs by drug companies. (disclaimer before more shoutiness: in my opinion).

I agree with all of that in general.

I really should learn not to air my dirty laundry on message boards in the first place :-/

I used to.

king, would you mind shooting me an e-mail?

i'm a bunch of different nerve endings/reactions/states that i don't even bother labeling, it's a waste of my time =) i just deal with what i can and talk to ppl when i can't.

and i think i always tend to go to the Parents when it comes to questions of overmedication. it's in their hands.

Hurting, I was "diagnosed" with ADHD when I was a kid and have been intermittently medicated. When I was in fourth grade, my doctor recommended giving me coffee instead of medication, because caffeine is supposed to simulate the focusing aspects of the drugs. I used to have to stay in during recess and drink milky coffee. Bummer.

In 5th grade, I started taking a drug called Cylert, which soon after was taken off the market for causing death from acute liver failure. I don't really remember it having much of an effect, although my parents', teachers', and grades' reactions were promising. I stopped taking it for some reason.

Then in 10th grade I started taking Adderall, 10mg at first. I don't know if you've ever taken any recreationally, but it's just like an amphetamine (or cocaine). You feel like a demi-god: ideas are numerous and profound, and your future is there to be filled with them. I used to take them before school, and I'd end up spending class scrambling to record my thoughts in my notebook. I told my doctor that I wasn't feeling much of an effect, so he prescribed me a 20mg dosage (orange pills now!). I used to skip my dosage, then take 50 - 60 mg, stay up for a few days, and then crash on the weekend. I'm not sure if my parents noticed my schedule or what, but I eventually stopped taking them. My grades didn't improve, I had terrible stomach aches, no appetite, AND areduced sex drive-- no good for a 16 year old.

I don't recommend medication. Obviously, I abused mine, so maybe someone more responsible could profit a proper schedule/dosage. I would never take them again, though. If ADHD exists and it's some sort of chemical imbalance, the medications we have simply aren't precise enough. It's like getting stitches with a knitting needle. It only gets the job done incidentally, and has a lot of side effects.

If you're desperate or curious, ask your doctor to do a trial two weeks or so. If it works, great. Personally, I would rather be my impulsive, distracted, procrastinating self than whoever the meds purport to make me. You have to remember that these drugs don't just regulate our kidneys or reduce cholesterol; they target our BRAINS, so they literally alter who we are.

Okay, I'm kind of drunk, but you should check out this corny bestseller that my mom bought me a few years ago. It's called DRIVEN TO DISTRACTION. It's kind of comforting.

huey is right.

you all have disorders.

ADHD can't be diagnosed based on a kid just being hyper or out of control. I used to work on the children's unit in a psychiatric hospital. ADHD was one of the diagnoses almost every child had. All of them had no trouble sitting on the couch watching Disney movies from beginning to end. A child who really has ADHD can't even focus on things they ARE interested in. What annoys me the most is that when kids are misdiagnosed like this on such a large scale you end up having people making claims that the disorder doesn't exist at all, which is not good for the children who really do have ADHD and really do need the medications in order to function well. It has been over 10 years since I worked at that hospital and I would have thought that the ADHD diagnosis trend would have died out by now. Apparently I was wrong.

fucking WOW! the whole "2 years ago" part of this thread is so unspeakably stupid, wrong, and awful, I would get angry if it were just a little less troll-y.

the rest of it's pretty awful, too.

I sometimes wonder if I have ADHD or something, but I think I'm just a lazy bastard.

(NB I am in no way insinuating that people with actual ADHD are just lazy and should pull themselves together or anything!!!)

Wait I think I mean ADD not ADHD.

see to me this is where i start looking at things from a "neurodivergent" framework. i do have challenges that neurotypical people don't, but really, the example i gave... why should that example be specific to neurodivergent people? i'm not sure my having ADHD is even relevant to what happened in that situation. it's just about appreciating that people are different, that what may be easy for one person is hard for another, that blaming and shaming someone for having difficulty doing something that might be easy for another person doesn't _help_, doesn't lead to good outcomes.

it's easy for me to look at that situation from another perspective. like, i expect things to be in a certain place, and if i have a partner who puts things in a _different_ place, i get upset. i could say "that's not where that belongs!" or, maybe they don't have a rigid and precise sense of where things _belong_ like i do. maybe they can't remember. i mean, it's ok for them to not be able to remember something like that, right? people can only do what they can do. it's not _really_ a question of "you did it wrong, stop doing it wrong" but finding a way to take this unhealthy pattern and make it healthy. and that's not going to be done entirely through negative feedback!

it blows my mind that being praised is literally a _fetish_ for so many people. it's, like, seen as _demimonde_ somehow to have a deep hunger for praise and validation. that's fucking _wild_. my girlfriend and i, who are both highly neurodivergent, we praise each other _all the time_, sincerely. when one of us does something that's hard, that's praiseworthy. you did the dishes! good job! you set a boundary! good job! even things that people might not normally be praiseworthy. my girlfriend comes to me in crisis, she's in a bad way, she hasn't taken care of herself, she feels so much guilt and shame about doing these things and not telling me, the first thing i tell her is what a good job she's done, that she's taking care of herself, that i'm proud of her. that's just not the life experience i grew up with!

as to david berman's question... i thought of myself as a monster for a long time. it was kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy... if i saw myself as a monster, i felt i had to act like one. i'm not a monster. i don't have to act like one. that's a big part of the answer, for me. when i care about myself, when i believe i'm worth caring about, i behave in ways that don't just benefit me, but often benefit the people around me. that's what i've found.