― tom west (thomp), Tuesday, 16 January 2007 15:47 (seventeen years ago) link
there's a gag in that, isn't there
― tom west (thomp), Tuesday, 16 January 2007 15:48 (seventeen years ago) link
But having to use such a signifier actually seems to suggest the opposite: "I don't feel secure that people will get the true literaryness of my novel, therefore I will add a special signifier to show it."
― Revivalist (Revivalist), Tuesday, 16 January 2007 16:05 (seventeen years ago) link
― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Tuesday, 16 January 2007 16:25 (seventeen years ago) link
― God Bows to Meth (noodle vague), Tuesday, 16 January 2007 17:29 (seventeen years ago) link
― Aimless (Aimless), Tuesday, 16 January 2007 18:54 (seventeen years ago) link
― tom west (thomp), Tuesday, 16 January 2007 19:27 (seventeen years ago) link
― cutty (mcutt), Tuesday, 16 January 2007 20:29 (seventeen years ago) link
This is one of those stylistic choices that, if you decide it's "literary" and pretentious (and/or pointless and annoying), the text will pretty much always seem to support your decision. Or you can decide it's just another implement in the auctorial toolbox and judge case-by-case whether it works ("works").
― W i l l (common_person), Tuesday, 16 January 2007 20:55 (seventeen years ago) link
What am I doing here? he asked. Why ask such a question?
So who says the second bit, the character or the narrator. Either way, author-person, fuck off until you've learned to use quotation marks/long dashes.
Another annoying permutation is that used by the Australian writer Nick Earls, who uses nothing to mark characters speaking, and italics for the narrator speaking.
― James Morrison (JRSM), Tuesday, 16 January 2007 23:35 (seventeen years ago) link
― tom west (thomp), Wednesday, 17 January 2007 01:46 (seventeen years ago) link
if yr. writing more descriptively, then its a difft story of course.
but, i mean, how else to render:
"Yeah. I remember it.You did not believe me.I believed you.You spoke to your friend?Yeah. I spoke to him.But your words carried no weight with him.No. They didn't.And now I cannot help you. You see.I didn't come here for your help."
etc.
I mean, can you imagine quotes around each bit of it -- the natural rhythm and beat to the language and back-and-forth would be totally destroyed.
― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 17 January 2007 06:16 (seventeen years ago) link
But, not to belabor the obvious, if the author used quotation marks, then you wouldn't have that ambiguity!
― Casuistry (Chris P), Wednesday, 17 January 2007 06:51 (seventeen years ago) link
As for quotes ruining the rhythm of the language - I can see what you mean, but to me the _lack_ of quotes seems to stick out more - Elmore Leonard is a master of that kind of back-and-forth, and he uses quote marks with no problem.
― James Morrison (JRSM), Thursday, 18 January 2007 03:23 (seventeen years ago) link
i'm fairly certain i don't actually believe that.
― tom west (thomp), Thursday, 18 January 2007 03:54 (seventeen years ago) link
Well, I mean. It's fun.
― Casuistry (Chris P), Thursday, 18 January 2007 06:18 (seventeen years ago) link
― wmlynch (wlynch), Thursday, 18 January 2007 06:36 (seventeen years ago) link
also: GADDIS
― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 18 January 2007 07:42 (seventeen years ago) link
Whatever the case, doing away with quotation marks is stylistically a "look at me, Mum!" type thing to do. We internalise conventions, and when someone does away with a convention, it turns attention on the writing style, rather than the content (what's said). I'm not saying that's bad, because every good piece of work twists a convention in some way. But if there's no good reason to overturn the convention except to draw attention to the fact that a convention has been overturned...
I'm almost through McCarthy's No Country For Old Men now, and I think it's pretty good. But this punctuation thing does annoy me. Not just his lack of quotation marks, but his leaving out apostrophes in a seemingly random way, and I can't be bothered to check but I get the impression that there is not a single comma in the entire novel. I don't think these eccentricities really add anything to the novel, they're just distractions.
― Revivalist (Revivalist), Thursday, 18 January 2007 09:34 (seventeen years ago) link
― God Bows to Meth (noodle vague), Thursday, 18 January 2007 10:50 (seventeen years ago) link
― Revivalist (Revivalist), Thursday, 18 January 2007 11:52 (seventeen years ago) link
― Casuistry (Chris P), Thursday, 18 January 2007 15:10 (seventeen years ago) link
― franny (frannyglass), Thursday, 18 January 2007 15:21 (seventeen years ago) link
― Revivalist (Revivalist), Thursday, 18 January 2007 15:42 (seventeen years ago) link
― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 18 January 2007 18:40 (seventeen years ago) link
― franny (frannyglass), Thursday, 18 January 2007 19:01 (seventeen years ago) link
― SRH (Skrik), Friday, 19 January 2007 15:26 (seventeen years ago) link
― Mr. Que (Mr.Que), Friday, 19 January 2007 15:57 (seventeen years ago) link
Well, that's Ignorant Jim Joyce told then.
― God Bows to Meth (noodle vague), Friday, 19 January 2007 16:18 (seventeen years ago) link
― Aimless (Aimless), Friday, 19 January 2007 17:52 (seventeen years ago) link
― The Redd And The Blecch (Ken L), Friday, 19 January 2007 18:32 (seventeen years ago) link
1. Re: "What am I doing here? he asked. Why ask such a question?" I think—at least in Joyce's—case that looking for the paragraph breaks will help determine the boundaries of dialogue.
2. In some authors (I am thinking mainly of Kelman here) the lack of "speech marks" seems an attempt to fuse narration with a single character; to show the character telling his own story rather than employing an overarching level of narration (the omniscient and possibly Imperial).
― fields of salmon (fieldsofsalmon), Saturday, 20 January 2007 18:49 (seventeen years ago) link
― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Sunday, 21 January 2007 02:13 (seventeen years ago) link
― dylan (dylan), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 20:07 (seventeen years ago) link
― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 8 February 2007 23:26 (seventeen years ago) link
I think I disagree with this, the lack of apostrophes was meant to enhance the impression of unpretentious, country-not-school-smart good ol boys talkin.
I would hate to hear Cormac McCarthy talk about politics and stuff but I sure do like his books.
― Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 8 February 2007 23:53 (seventeen years ago) link
― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Friday, 9 February 2007 00:30 (seventeen years ago) link
If you're talking about JR and implying William Gaddis is a bad writer,
I'LL FIGHT YE!
― franny (frannyglass), Friday, 9 February 2007 01:59 (seventeen years ago) link
Oh srsly?
― Jordan (Jordan), Friday, 9 February 2007 15:29 (seventeen years ago) link
Here's an author who puts quotation marks on his name...
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/514XGhsSuqL._SX310_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg
― Whiney Houston (Tom D.), Tuesday, 16 January 2018 18:51 (six years ago) link
ya because jock can mean an athlete, a dj or a hobbyist, but his is probably just a term of endearment, like a diminutive of his real name
― infinity (∞), Wednesday, 17 January 2018 17:44 (six years ago) link
Nonetheless, odd to have it in quotation marks on the cover, and spine, of a book? His real name is William btw. Was, rather.
― Whiney Houston (Tom D.), Wednesday, 17 January 2018 17:50 (six years ago) link
i know what you're saying
it does seem strange
there are people in my family whose nicknames have no relationship to their given names though
like maybe it arose from a funny incident that became legendary in the davidson family
― infinity (∞), Wednesday, 17 January 2018 17:59 (six years ago) link
i think in summary: he's doing the usual thing of putting a nickname in quotations but unusually not putting his actual given name before it and also putting it on a book cover.
― khat person (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 17 January 2018 18:00 (six years ago) link
also is the possessive part of the full title or is that another irregularity from this exceedingly irregular fellow
― j., Thursday, 18 January 2018 01:07 (six years ago) link