Search And Destroy: Musicals

Destroy: Andrew Lloyd Webber, as slowly and painfully as possible. Musicals based on Disney films. Over-long dance sequences in films of musicals, for example Carousel and West Side Story. I don't care if it's ground-breaking choreography, it bores me. I exclude from this the barn raising in Seven Brides for Seven Brothers, which is CLASSIC.

Does an in-depth knowledge of musicals mean you're a square?

Or something. Ummmm, keep in mind I'm not a fan of musicals. They seem retarded. I mean, it's just not even remotely something I can relate to - I've NEVER burst into song spontaneously, unless I'm drunk, and those times that I have drunkenly done so, no backing music or magical dancers appeared, and no one ever sang along with me. So it's totally lame.

But anyhow.

Search: Mary Poppins, specifically that song where they go "It's the master! Step in time! It's the master! Step in time!" The chimney sweeps remind me of Damon Albarn in his cockney period.

Destroy: Andrew Lloyd Webber. Especially Joseph and his Goddamned Technicolor Horrorcoat.

Search

Hair (all versions - stage, screen, UK/USA etc) - better than any of the groups they were sending up.

Rocky Horror (better than the corny reputation suggests; I avoided it for years because of that, but the UK original cast is fantastic)

Almodovar compilations - the bluffer's way into Spanish song.

Cabaret (film soundtrack ) - obviously needs no explanation

Irving Berlin, Cole Porter, Noel Coward compliations - probably the best way to get a handle on the "Golden Age'

Marilyn Monroe compilations

Summer Holiday

Destroy - Sondheim, opera versions of musicals, Elvis musicals, Kink's rock operas, Tommy

I hope that comment will be taken in the spirit in which it was intended. I couldn't quite put a name to that spirit.

Stevie: The whole thing sounds dreadful, especially given the involvement of the floppy haired boy from Blur. But I doubt it's about making money.

The Musical is SUCH a cool format (such complex self-reflexive possibilities): but almost everyone totally fucks it up.

Destroy: I'm NOT gonna say Lloyd Webber, because "Don't Cry For Me" is a Top Song. So's "Moments in Love" or "Reasons to be Cheerful" or whatever that other one was called.

Aspects of Love (?was that the whole thing, or the song?)

search: umbrellas of cherbourg (or any music composed by michel legrand) - the camera work and colors in this film are great too, but i listen to the lp frequently. this is a musical to the extreme, there being nothing but singing - it's quite hypnotic after awhile.

dancer in the dark - a bit melodramatic, but i rather enjoyed the way this musical film incorporated the songs percussion w/ the machine noises.

waiting for guffman (sp?) - a farce on local theatre troups. the song 'nothing ever happens on mars' stands out.

also, i can't remember the title, but i saw a fantastic french film that broke out into musical form w/ classic french songs from all decades. if anybody has any idea what i'm talking about please tell me what the name is so i can find a video of it!

destroy: annie, godspell

Re. Stevie's question, I don't think they can be writing musicals in the hope of earning a pot of cash, as the only ones that earn big bucks in the West End at the moment are Lloyd Webber, have a minor celebrity in the lead role or are based on a Disney film. A musical that bombs loses a lot of money.

Merritt and the Pet Shop Boys both fall neatly into Nick's categories, but has old floppy fringe ever been mistaken for a gay man?

The fire alarm is ringing at work. I will cut myself short and do a runner.

Search: Crazy For You was pretty good, as I recall, but this is obviously because of the Gershwin. Les Miz is OK at times. West Side Story I never saw, but the music is essential. Also, most great jazz standards were from musicals, although they sound better when swinging.

Destroy: Andrew Lloyd Webber, Stephen Sondheim, Miss Saigon, Showboat, and the last musical I saw, Chicago.

The Umbrellas of Cherbourg is lovely, though.

And if we are going to talk about musicals on film, obviously South Park: bigger, longer and uncut has to get a mention.

Destroy: Les Miserables. Having to see this in high school scarred me for life. Wretched in the extreme. Andrew Lloyd Webber is horrific enough, but musicals by those influenced by him are even worse.

Destroy: The soul-sucking pit of horror that is "Miss Saigon". Complete and total abhorrence for that piece of toss. I'm also very suspicious of "Rent". "My Fair Lady" has some decent songs in it, but it will always have severe negative connotations for me due to the unfortunate people I saw it with. The movie version of "The Sound Of Music" must be shunned for all time because they cut out all of the songs that my character sings, the BASTARDS.

Miss Saigon is the most depressing thing I ever saw. It reminded me of the "games" me and my friends used to play, ie long extended several day acting chores where we'd decide on characters and never leave character until the "game" was done, because when we'd get tired of the storyline we'd kill off all our characters and then go back to being our normal selves.

We were like 6 at the time. Fatalists even then. It's heartwarming.

I don't know, but I bet he hasn't got an "in-depth knowledge of musicals" anyway. Actually, I bet he has. I bet he's learned all about them from some cunty friend of his or else he's gone to a library and done research because he thinks it's cool.

SEARCH: "bye bye birdie" -- genius all around, from the telephone song, with its call and response, to the mass-fainting scene of 'honestly sincere,' to the television-as-church hymn of "ed sullivan." plus hello, PAUL LYNDE! "pippin" -- especially the fosse- choreographed part that rips off the 'vampyros lesbos' soundtrack. (this is intentional; the score is even marked at that point, 'lesbos.') "my fair lady." "how to succeed in business without really trying." "me and my girl." 'oom-pah-pah' from "oliver!" 'easy street' from "annie" -- oh i could just watch tim curry be evil ALL DAY. "south park: bigger, longer, and uncut."

DESTROY: oh, you know. all the big ones. phantom. les mis.

MUST FIND OUT ABOUT: "the producers." i mean 'springtime for hitler' is absolute GENIUS, but i worry because the new songs are from the same man who brought you "robin hood: men in tights," i.e., the success-spoilt mel brooks. also i'd kill for a recording of sebastian bach's tenure in "jekyll and hyde," even though the music itself blows.

Search: I'm with Mark on "Don't Cry For Me Argentina". Also whoever mentioned "Send In The Clowns", though opinion seems to be against Sondheim here (I wouldn't know). After that my ignorance really is boundless because I've only really been exposed to the rubbish ones and hoofing school productions of Joseph.

Destroy: My visit to "Les Miserables" was one of the most numb-arsed experiences of my life.

And now I'm imagining Tom wandering aimlessly around the racks, looking confused, holding up CDs and muttering "Ketchup.... Catsup.... Ketchup....Catsup" until the staff lead him away into a van.

Also search Kurt Weill’s broadway shows (anyone who can do a detailed search and destroy on these would have my thanks); the mighty Gilbert and Sullivan (the only 'musicals' I would like to stage)

If you are in Spain look for Zarazuela's (the best operettas in Europe).

Search: The Sound Of Music. What beautiful songs that one has, and the story was a perfect reflection of the childhood fantasy of the caring mother who plays with the kids, sings, is pretty, etc. Any kid can relate to that so easily.

Adieu, adieu, to you and you and you...

Wait! Forgot the destroy. Count me in with the anti-Lloyd Webber group. His songs just aren't catchy.

I can only echo those who adore West Side Story. Guys and Dolls, Grease too. Wizard of Oz? I don't know the Porter / R&H / etc oeuvres a fraction as well as I want to. It is surprisingly hard to get hold of this stuff at good prices. Search: good Cole Porter collections (ie not cut-rate instrumentals by the Belfast Brickle Bridge Brass Band).

Destroy is really hard here. I'm interested in what Stevie T says re Sondheim - you must lend me that CD some time. He was very good on Walk On By (BBC), I thought. But the songs - not up to scratch?

Lots of people have panned Lloyd Webber. I don't like the idea of L- W, and I'm sure lots of his stuff is bad. But I liked Cats and Starlight Express as a child, and would never choose to destroy them.

I think that Stevie is pointing us somewhere interesting. I think that he is saying: what is it about the musical that periodically, or even continually, fascinates us? What kind of contribution, exactly, has the musical made to pop history? What kind of specificity does the 'show song' have that makes songwriters want to undertake it at some point?

As I myself intend to with PAPERCUTS!, opening in Covent Garden, May 2004.

Book (flights to Paris) now to avoid disappointment.

Background: can't sing (trust me), but I did grow up with a couple of musical soundtracks around the house, saw a few here and there on cable, ended up doing lighting for a high school production of _Oliver!_ and acting as Mayor Shinn in another HS production of _The Music Man_. Techie and actor, best of both worlds. ;-)

Search -- the two mentioned above, for sentimental reasons in part, sure. I actually have that production of _The Music Man_ on videotape. Heh heh heh. My all-time fave movie musical, hands down, is _Gigi_. Saw it when I was eleven, been a fan ever since. With time has come a further realization about how dodgy a lot of it is, of course! But there's too much in it to love for me to reject it. Meanwhile, stepping against the ALW tide a bit, my parents got the New York recording of _Evita_ with Mandy Patinkin as Che and Patti LuPone as Evita herself when I was ten or so, and I played that one to death, so again, nostalgia fix but a nice one.

Destroy: hoo baby. I think most of the fatted cows were up for slaughter already. I've actually seen _Les Miserables_, and I have to say I did like the "Master of the House" song, but I could probably ditch the rest without a care nowadays. That was the last musical I've seen, actually -- back in 1989! _Rent_, meanwhile...the ONLY reason anyone cared was because the guy who wrote it died and they could feel all sentimental about it. Gah!

CANNOT WAIT FOR: _White Trash Wins Lotto_, by Andy Prieboy. If all the promise I've heard about this one comes true, then it will be a happy, *happy* world. He's been working on it for about seven or so years, has done live performances of it with a small group, has yet to be staged. Prieboy has gone on record as saying that he's well aware how Broadway can be undervalued in modern pop perceptions, but that Broadway itself is its own worst enemy, and has a tendency to regard being cutting edge as sounding like Pat Benatar, so it sounds like he's coming in with the right attitude. Subject matter? It's the story of Guns 'n' Roses. Seriously. The hopefully-will-one-day-be-updated URL is http://www.andyprieboy.com/.

http://members.tripod.com/Point202/GuysandDolls/lament.html

(should be read with New Yoik accent)

"City of Angels": by two guys I haven't heard about since, all big- band jazzish and torch songy, parallel black and white world private- eye movie/writer writing private-eye movie color world storylines. Confusing in description, but much fun.

"Little Shop Of Horrors": can't believe this hasn't been mentioned yet. Rice and Menken, big man-eating plant and wimpy nebbish, based on a Roger Corman classique, and the movie version is a pitch perfect and has Steve Martin, Bill Murray, John Candy, and Rick "really pretty brilliant until I started making those family-Disney-shrinking pics" Moranis, who has an impressive set of pipes. Also features: Gina from "Martin," as in the "Gina! You so crazy!" Gina. If someone has mentioned this, I'm sorry to go on about it more.

Destroy: Dinner theaters. Do y'all have dinner theaters on the Isles? So ... unfortunate. *Shudder*

I like Phantom and Les Mis.

Destroy: Everything else by ALW. Cats... Cats... the horror. There was a joke on SNL at one point long ago when Dennis Miller was still on that went something like...

"For the 4,760th time the broadway musical 'Cats' was performed on stage, eclipsing the old mark of A Chorus Line. And for the 4,760th time, a man killed his wife."

Tommy. I mean, the movie and stage vers. And the studio album, actually. The live versions ROCK LIKE HELL tho...

Sorry. I went a little tangential there.

Annihilate - "Grease 2".

destroy: almost everything else by Lloyd Webber.

all Troma iz shite

saw Bernadette & Elaine in A Little Night Music tonight, worth at least $50 of the $70 I paid.

Search: Cabaret
Destroy: Any musicals involving children, especially orphans/urchins.

love this thread, as my daughter needs to watch a half-dozen musicals for forth-grade (dvd's count). she's devoured some children's fare, and now actually wants to watch les miserables (we'll see how that goes; it's a dark, intense work for a near 10-year old).

are there any "musicals" centered around really weird abstract non-anthemic non-singsong music?

The Off-Broadway stage production itself sounds horrible, but I'm really, really, really loving the soundtrack to "Revolution in the Elbow of Ragnar Agnarsson Furniture Painter." Straddles the line between indie-rock and musical very nicely, and a lot of the songs are very strong. Some power-pop, some glam-rock. Took me very much by surprise. Opening track (less rock than some)...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iy13Oj8rHRQ

It's on Spotify. Check "I'll Save The Day" for more perspective.

Adding one more, more along the lines of New Pornographers. The actual show has dire reviews, but kind of surprised the soundtrack hasn't made at least a teeny bit more noise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsHYXK3btjw

seeing Chicago tomorrow as it happens

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/18/theater/review-in-hamilton-lin-manuel-miranda-forges-democracy-through-rap.html?hpw&rref=arts&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=well-region®ion=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well&_r=0

I'd like to see this

excerpt:

During the first half of the 20th century, the American songbook was often dictated by Broadway tunesmiths. But by the late 1950s, songs from musicals had become a quaint breed apart from the songs that America danced to and sang in the shower. And though many major talents have tried to close that gap (including Mr. Miranda in his amiable but less thoroughly realized Broadway hit “In the Heights”), Spotify-friendly tunes have tended to show up only in those cumbersome recycling centers known as jukebox musicals.

But, lo and behold, there are songs throughout “Hamilton” that could be performed more or less as they are by Drake or Beyoncé or Kanye. And there’s none of the distancing archness found in those recent (and excellent) history musicals at the Public, “Bloody Bloody Andrew Jackson” and “Here Lies Love.” “Hamilton” isn’t cool; it’s utterly sincere, but without being judgmental or pious. And its numbers come across as natural and inevitable expressions of people living in late-18th-century America.

Acknowledging no disconnect between its sound and its setting, “Hamilton” bypasses the self-consciousness of anachronism. What’s more, it convinces us that hip-hop and its generic cousins embody the cocky, restless spirit of self-determination that birthed the American independence movement. Like the early gangsta rap stars, the founding fathers forge rhyme, reason and a sovereign identity out of tumultuous lives.

It also feels appropriate that the ultimate dead white men of American history should be portrayed here by men who are not white. The United States was created, exclusively and of necessity, by people who came from other places or their immediate descendants.

Washington Post theatre reviewer goes to NY and loves it too. His contemporary musical reference: Tupac...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/theater_dance/history-as-youve-never-heard-it-before/2015/02/17/e803502e-b6e4-11e4-bc30-a4e75503948a_story.html

The handiwork here is also proof positive of the reassuring resilience of the American musical and how marvelously adaptable, in capable hands, the form remains. Drawing on such varied influences as rap, pop, jazz and Broadway standards — and the vocabularies of ­Tupac Shakur, the Beatles and Gilbert and Sullivan — “Hamilton” is as smart about music as it is about the American Revolution. Along with “Wicked,” the all-time tweener sensation, and the perfectly irreverent “The Book of Mormon,” “Hamilton” will be talked about in years to come as a benchmark experience, one that opened the eyes of other theater-makers to new possibilities.

all tix been gone for current run for awhile, I assume it moving uptown is assured.

Its gotten so much acclaim. There was also a big profile of Miranda in the NY Times a little while back. I wonder if any music critics who are currently reviewing rap and r'n'b, have weighed in? Would like to see a non-theatre person appraisal.

interesting! btw i'd say that the marginalization of "show tunes" is part and parcel of the general marginalization of the live theater that begins as soon as the movies come in.

Not really getting that; the birth of song-driven musical plays in the way we think of them starts with either Show Boat in the late '20s or Oklahoma! in '43, so movies have already come in. Musical theatre can't be over before it gets started.

that's true. so maybe we'd have to date the marginalization of theater to a later date, but i definitely think the trend is broader than just a decline of show-tunes' ubiquity.

(though some have argued that the development of the modern "musical theater" is itself a kind of response to the rise of film; but that's a pretty oblique argument)

During the first half of the 20th century, the American songbook was often dictated by Broadway tunesmiths. But by the late 1950s, songs from musicals had become a quaint breed apart from the songs that America danced to and sang in the shower. And though many major talents have tried to close that gap (including Mr. Miranda in his amiable but less thoroughly realized Broadway hit “In the Heights”), Spotify-friendly tunes have tended to show up only in those cumbersome recycling centers known as jukebox musicals.

The Disney animation renaissance of the early 90s was built on animated musicals, which included the following songs that cracked the US top 10:

"Beauty and the Beast" - Celine Dion & Peabo Bryson
"A Whole New World" - Peabo Bryson & Regina Bell
"Can You Feel The Love Tonight?" - Elton John
"Colors of the Wind" - Vanessa Williams

In addition, "Circle of Life" (Lion King), "Someday" (Hunchback) and "You'll Be In My Heart" (Tarzan) all charted on the US top 40.

So, while it's fair to say that stage musicals didn't dominate the charts aside from some oddball one-offs for several decades (though I guess Chess is really a back-door effort because I think the album came first?), some of the biggest songs from the 90s have strong musical lineage to them; I don't think coming from movie musicals should count against them.

when is someone gonna stage Prince Among Thieves

btw there is a new book getting plenty of ink that posits that the USA was so traumatized by their experience of WW2 it facilitated the movement away from sophisticated prewar pop (Cole Porter, the Gershwins, H Arlen et al) to the brainlessness of '46-50s (novelties, Perry Como, easy listening Mitch Miller-disseminated pap).

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2015/01/the-great-american-songbook-isnt-dead/384764/

those kind of arguments are pretty much always wrong -- but they are also relatively impossible to prove wrong, which partly explains their continued appeal.

ah yes bebop, so brainless

I hate these kinds of arguments, they tend to be p ahistorical and more axe-grinding

46-50s pop is brainless? gtfo with that

the USA was so traumatized by their experience of WW2 it facilitated the movement away from sophisticated prewar pop

that Atlantic piece does not mention this theory/argument, which seems p ridiculous on its face

obviously not a UNIVERSAL theorem, of course there's always gold n' shit in every era.

(Many, if not most, of the Tin Pan Alley “cleffers” had been unabashed hacks, anyway. “I had to recognize for myself that I was not Irving Berlin,” recalled Sheldon Harnick, one theatrical songwriter who nevertheless balked at the pressure to conform to the “crap” that was topping the Hit Parade in the early 1950s.)

B-b-but some of my all-time favorite pop songs are "crap" pop from the pre-rock fifties.

all this stuff: some leading factors in the decline of the Great American Songbook could certainly be pinned on murky dealings behind the scenes, including the ongoing skirmish between the two leading music publishers (the old-guard American Society of Composers, Authors, and Publishers and the upstart Broadcast Music, Inc.), the rising influence of radio disc jockeys (a show business phenomenon comparable to “an atomic bomb,” howled Variety), and the “payola” scandal that would eventually scandalize the industry. Dwindling sales of sheet music, once a staple of the industry, ended the careers of many composers, as did television’s displacement of the theater as the American family’s favorite pastime.

make sense. no half-assed theorizing about the American psyche required.

xp

really Shakey, there was a ton of bebop at the top of the charts?

DJP, I think Broadway people consider movie musicals, particularly the animated Disney ones, a breed apart not only bcz of the medium but there's so much more capital for them (and in Disney's case, millions of wee zombie disciples).

hey you just said 46-50s, you didn't say anything about chart-topping

"pop" as in popular

"race records", hillbilly music, jazz from that era is incredible and was popular albeit not chart-topping - and I don't think it's popularity reflected any shift in the American psyche akin to some kind of facile "omg I can't DEAL WITH FANCY LYRICS anymore! cuz WW2" reading, those forms represented an expansion of the industry beyond the rich white guys that were largely running shit prior.

I haven't read that book (I'm assuming you have?) but the author doesn't appear to make that argument you posted based on that Atlantic article.

geez i don't have time to read books about MUSIC

ok here is the specific piece on NPR i heard re that angle

Ben Yagoda: There was a change in popular taste. The soldiers who had come back from World War II didn't seem to be as interested in the more complex, challenging kind of popular song, the more jazz-based song. Sentimental ballads and, yes, novelty numbers, suddenly was much more appealing.

http://www.npr.org/2015/01/23/379086600/when-pop-broke-up-with-jazz

goodbye ILM

among other problems those arguments universalize (and also homogenize) the experience of WWII vets

i don't think sentiment has ever gone out of fashion

goodbye ILM

we should be so lucky :)

I don't know how you would even begin to quantify or back up that assertion

xp

Never saw Lin Manuel-Miranda "In the Heights" onstage, but just saw the movie and it was ok. The music and dancing was fun (although not amazing) but the plot story lines took so long to unfold and were kind of frustrating when you did figure them out. Why didn't the girl leaving Stanford just try to transfer to another school rather than letting her dad sell his business to pay for tuition? And yeah, I see Miranda has now apologized for having so many of the characters being light-skinned Latinx rather than Afro-Latinx.

Poor phrasing on that last item, but its referring to the choice of the actors and actresses.

"In the Heights" was never really renowned for its book, which doesn't have a huge amount of conflict or a big arc (the movie did actually change quite a lot from the stage version, though). it's more the characters, the music, and the choreography that really sold that one.

that said I really enjoyed the movie, but I ventured to NYC to see the original in 2008

the biggest change in the movie is that Nina's mother is alive in the stage version and butts heads with Nina's dad a lot and removing her took a lot of that dynamic away

Yeah, good songs, blah story, too long. Don't know how long the original show is but this felt like they didn't want to cut anything from it (though I see from Neanderthal's comment, they did)

there were two full-fledged songs cut from it, yet the length was still about the same, weirdly

I imagine cutting songs when adapting musicals to screen is done very carefully for fear of risking fan backlash

one of the songs cut was like a powerful second act song that many people used as like audition pieces/etc. was very surprised.

weirdly, no songs were added, either, which is usually a ploy to become Oscars-eligible for Best Original Song. almost all movie musicals have at least one song added (Hairspray had several)

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/16/arts/dance/in-the-heights-dance.html

Scott, who comes from the street dance world of Los Angeles and is not Latino, worked with a team of associate choreographers who specialized in a range of styles, including Latin dance, hip-hop, ballet and contemporary dance
...
His team of associate choreographers is solid: Eddie Torres Jr. for Latin dance, with Princess Serrano as assistant Latin choreographer; Ebony Williams for ballet, contemporary dance, Afro and dancehall; Emilio Dosal, a popper who is versatile in many styles and brings the hip-hop element to the film; and Dana Wilson, who had a hand in everything — like all of the choreographers — but specifically worked with the actors to help them nail the physicality of their characters.

Above NY Times article is on the dance aspect and not the songs as referenced above