Depression and what it's really like

It is ridiculously easy to view life and the universe as meaningless collisions of matter in a chaotic void. Doesn't make it true.

~bad weekend~

reality as a meaningless, chaotic void

guess it's a question of perspective, but it occurs to me that nothing logically follows from this. say it were true - what you do with that truth is more your decision than ever, not less.

We are all in it together. I had a therapist say that to me once...no one is in such perfect mental and emotional shape that they can live lives without their own issues. If people were that strong, we'd have a different world. I swear... if only a handful of people were that strong, we'd have a different world.

Had a bad weekend full of junky thoughts and shitty ponderings all directed towards making me feel bad about myself. I know you are supposed to choose thoughts. I need to learn to do that. Bought vitamins because I have a B12 thing and that could be most of my issues. Never underestimate plain ole nutrition. Thinking midlife? Then again I had something like this at 23, 33 and now I am 43 so maybe it's my own personal cycle?

NV otm. I feel a lot better in life thinking that there's no universal meaning or truth that I'm screwing up or missing out on, but instead meaning comes from what I personally put value in.
I guess that in moments of feeling down it helps some people to think of a specific thing larger than themselves, but that's never really been for me.

Just knowing that the world is out there, doing whatever the heck it is, is always reassuring to me.

mh and Noodle Vague both otm. I realize neither are purely talking about 'religious' influence, as the idea of a universal truth goes beyond that scope. But I'll say this: I was at my most miserable when I was a teenager who was a god-fearing individual who believed there was one incontrovertible 'truth', and if I chose not to follow it, I was clearly damaged. I even used to 'punish' myself for any time I would stray from the path, whether it be telling myself I was a horrible human being, or denying myself pleasure in retaliation for the specific transgression.

I was always miserable and it came to a head when I was about 16 or 17, when I finally was exposed to outside thought and realized my misery wasn't due to feeling like I failed in my universal mission, but because my psyche was telling me "THIS IS NOT FOR YOU!!!!!") (/Vedder).

I like the idea of identifying my own purpose - one which is still fairly strict in some senses, but it's *mine*. Even today some of my more spiritual friends ask me if atheism/agnosticism isn't depressing because it makes our lives 'meaningless', I think it's empowering as all hell to be able to define what I'm here for rather than having it dictated to me. I also like that it can evolve over time - my ideals and life goals in my 30s are nowhere near what they were in my 20s.

It also forces us to deal with life in the here and now. I'm tired of seeing shitty people doing shitty things and hearing platitudes like "karma will pay them back in the end" or "everything happens for a reason - they'll get theirs in the afterlife". No they won't! I don't think things happen for a reason, I think life is purely random, and that we need to hold people accountable for shit here and now. And we should quit shitting on the planet so future generations can prosper rather than saying "well Jehovah's gonna take us all to a big shiny palace anyway, idgaf if the ice caps melt".

i think meaninglessness and boundless freedom of purpose can be terrifying too, but i don't think the connection between that feeling and the internal narrative of depression is a necessary one. i think there's a definite sense of anguish/tension/blue when you feel forced to do things you hate against a background devoid of meaning, but like i said, i think yr perspective can be moved

absolutely NOT trying to diminish your experience of yourself and the world, Spectrum, want to make that clear

but this sidetrack has made me think about the ideational aspect of depression, and how it might connect/disconnect to biochemical aspects of it - how what we tell ourselves why we feel alone and empty might partly be an accounting for ourselves, to ourselves, after the fact

my depression usually manifests as the idea that I'm screwing up someone else's life or experiences, or that there's an expectation in ~the world~, not just my job or life, that I'm not fulfilling.

nice to go on vacation to a large city and just kind of take in all the things that are working, or not working, regardless of my actions

yeah, i feel that

thanks dudes, it's good to know i'm not alone, and that there are better solutions to these issues than just despairing about them. that's the challenge i'm facing now, figuring out what i want to do with my life, how i'm going to do it, and reconciling with the fact that the only meaning in life i'll probably find is self-made, self-directed, and self-fulfilling. that's totally new stuff for me! which is why i probably found it easier being religious when i was younger. just another hurdle to jump over, i guess.

totally relate to the self-punishment thing neanderthal, i forgot how much i used to do that back when i practiced. there was a lot of baggage and harm that went along with religion that isn't there with not believing anymore. but it's funny, i still punish myself a little bit when i stray from my values, which can be OK if it doesn't get too bad.

I kinda feel mh in regards to being afraid of fucking with other people's experiences. like I feel unusual levels of guilt when I wrong someone. I STILL remember this one night I made a girlfriend cry years ago and feel immense guilt over it, even though the girl (now an ex, still a friend) in question forgave me years ago.

for instance, tonight I saw this guy at a local theatre festival. This is a guy who has two kids, who recently got divorced because he'd been cheating on his wife for years and finally got found out. He was at the festival, chilling, looking completely relaxed and at peace. albeit I know that I have no idea what was really going on in his head or context, but I was thinking if it were me, I'd be so racked with guilt I'd be basically unable to function.

the other memory that fucks with me is the first time I stood up to my father. Love him dearly but when I was younger, he scared me. Never abused me and was a loving father, but stress got to him and he yelled a lot. even in situations that didn't warrant it. so I was often on eggshells. and one day when I was 23 and still living at home he rode me about something and I snapped at him and shrieked at him. and seeing his reaction made me feel crazy guilt and I can still remember his face.

I don't let things go basically.

eh you've gotta move on from shit or THAT weighs on others, too. them knowing that you guilt about some trifle you inflicted or something.

Spectrum, there can be meaning beyond what you bring to the table! I mean, you have to go to that table, sometimes. Helping others, creating new things, or even just stepping aside at that moment when it's time for someone else to shine. It's not that you have to guide meaning, just that you have to be willing to take it as it comes.

the fact that I can't move on from shit is the source of 99% of my neuroses. but nobody generally knows about that because I repress everything.

you can always tell your friends and family who aren't going to understand you anyway and just get annoyed after a while

http://mosaicscience.com/story/blackness-ever-blackening-my-lifetime-depression

jenny diski

I think one problem of this thread, which i have been viewing since about '03, is that people won't accept what other people are saying and just say, you know, its alright. Life IS meaningless, pointless and has no direction or sympathy for the things of which you or I suffer. That's somethig thats been tough for me to explain to people - especially because they grew up in different and a richer/two-parent household. How can you explain to someone what it's like to be homeless at 9 years old? How can you explain that you overcame certain things and are just making up for lost time? You never can - if they haven't been through it. You can only HOPE that they're sympathetic. But therapists will never really understand this. I read the same books they did. I just never had the chance to have a degree for it. That's all just a waste of time imo. You have a much better chance reaching out to your friends. But even then..

Not to say that poverty is the only reason for depression. There's a lot of people who are well off and still have to deal with this. It just seems like people forget about people like me/my family. College wasn't an option. Therapists weren't an option. Talking wasn't an option. You just sit there and deal with it. And before you know it you're grown up and wonder why you're so behind.

definitely feeling your last post

Dreamland, sorry if I'm missing your point (you make several actually, it seems), but doesn't it make some sense that the mindset you describe in your first post (that life is pointless and the universe doesn't care about you) would be in short supply on a thread whose very existence and persistence is driven by the feeling that other people maybe do give a shit about each other, enough so as to read others' words and offer words in return?

There's a lot more in what you wrote though, and it's making me think, but I'm nowhere near being able to respond to it in any lucid form.

Life IS meaningless, pointless and has no direction or sympathy for the things of which you or I suffer.

If the meaninglessness of the universe weighs you down it should be viewed as a symptom of depression, not a cause. A not-depressed mind can generate meanings as plentifully as a goose generates goose shit.

The idea that the entire universe ought to reflect our self-generated meanings back to us is a misunderstanding of the process. If anything, the universe loves humans for supplying it with such copious quantities of what it so conspicuously lacks otherwise.

How can you explain to someone what it's like to be homeless at 9 years old?

It sounds like you've at least made a start at explaining it to yourself, which is probably a very worthwhile exercise. I suspect that ILX would listen, if you made a few stabs here at summing up what it was like, at least the parts you understand so far.

Pertinent itt:

http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2014/06/stop-telling-your-depressed-friends-to-cheer-up.html

In particular this paragraph:

In fact, this is a big component of training to work on a suicide hotline: What the Samaritans call "befriending" is not about telling callers that they should go for a walk around the block (which they may be too depressed to do), or that things will get better (which they may not). It's about validating their feelings, about simply being present and offering consolation to the best extent you can.

YES YES YES. I *hate* when people say "things do get better*. To begin with, it's a loaded platitude - the person making the statement has no way of knowing that things will actually get better (as this isn't an inherent truth - life is random, sometimes shit just keeps happening). So if that prognostication goes south, now you have the depressed dude wondering why things didn't get better for them when they do for everybody else (which isn't the case, but is how it can be processed when you overuse that phrase).

and then of course the main reason - it's insulting. it's telling you "well, ok, you feel awful right now, but just sit idly by, it'll blow over soon". that's great - even if true, how about now, when I can't motivate myself to get out of bed or stop crying? People get so worked up over trying to solve folks' problems they forget how to be a friend.

I chalk it up to most people just not understanding depression, that it is not what most people think of sadness.

One anecdote I tend to remember is how people can understand a certain set of numbers - (1, 10, 100, so on) but once you get to certain point, numbers are just too big for people to visualize and they don't understand the real difference between, say, 250,000 and 1,000,000, because you rarely ever see actual visual representations of that in real life. So people can for instance, easily see the impact of a mugger robbing you for $200, but the white-collar criminal who steals billions and destroys countless lives is not correctly, proportionally seen.

I think of this when I've tried, countless times, to explain to friends and loved ones that for roughly 17 years, or about half my lifetime, I wake up every day and think about hurting and killing myself. It doesn't really get easier, but there is a difference between thinking about it every hour and just once or twice a day. The degree of suffering may change, but it doesn't matter what day it is, or why. My brain is fucked up, and I can treat this with medication and therapy, but it's not going to go away. The bulk of my efforts are just to try to live some kind of normal life.

"Those feelings have to suck, sorry you're feeling bad" has been my default comment for when people share shitty feelings with me (or some variation thereof). It's funny, some people really respond well to it, and others are like, "UH...", which I also enjoy.

My brother is very good to talk to when I am depressed, he just says, "It's ok to cry. There's nothing wrong with crying," in a very sincere way, while I cry. I am lucky he's around.

Some people are very good at this sort of listening but most just aren't. Most people don't have a clue how to helpfully respond when a friend tells them of the nightmare they're living through. People genuinely want to help though so they'll just spout out some platitude - not necessarily because they actually believe it (eg, that things will get better, etc) but just because they want to say something. I think we should be quite forgiving of our friends when they say things like this, even though they can irritate more than help.

Where I would draw the line though is if someone is simply trying to minimize one's feelings. I think much depends on tone and context though. I can easily picture "things will get better" as an expression of dismissal or minimizing as of awkward, but genuine support.

I went to one therapy session but I've cancelled my follow-up because I realized I really don't have the money or time. I don't know what I can do.

i think i am not as good at listening as i think i am. i've been depressed before, and treated for it, but nothing like what one person i know is facing and when i talk to them i can't help but spew out advice and reassurance. it's hard to sit there and hear someone you care about say negative things about themselves though. just sitting there in that case would seem, i don't know, negligent, but i'm not a therapist.

xp do you really not have the time?

all due respect Treesh sometimes just listening, and nodding, and making the odd sympathetic noise, is the best you can do. you can't solve everybody. which is hard i know.

xp i have a full time job with a 45 minute commute. also i would have to have my work schedule shifted one day every week which i don't think can happen.

I have the same (full-time job, 45 minute commute) and I was able to see a therapist once a week. Not trying to make you feel bad - it was tough to swing but IMO worth having one day a week with basically no free time. I was lucky that my therapist was close to my office and offered evening hours. The money is a harder nut to crack but some therapists work on a sliding scale. My ex wasn't making much when she was seeing her therapist, and the therapist gave her a super low rate. Good luck crut, hope you are able to work something out

I also have a full time job and a similar commute and I'm seeing someone 2x a week right now. It's exhausting and there are many many nights when I don't want to go but I just keep telling myself it's going to be worth it in the end. Good luck crut.

Has anyone else who uses SSRIs - specifically either sertraline or Lexapro - had any experience with nightmares/bad dreams as a side effect?

xp i have tended to have rapidly diminishing returns from therapy and i totally hear u cluckin re: time (and money!), but if things are really bad then making the time is probably pretty important? cause it's your ~lyfe~

and maybe you can find someone with evening sessions or whatever works for your schedule

xp anecdotally i very rarely have/remember dreams of any sort, then dream very vividly when skipping doses or running out. which is kind of disconcerting all the way around

it was an evening session. i still have to shift my work schedule. it's the only place i know of in the city that does evening sessions & it's not anywhere near my house or workplace.

Maybe you could look and see if there is a therapist (anywhere in the world) who you vibe with that does skype?

Anyway crut you got mad emapthiez from me; figuring that shit out with no kinks when you're feeling a-ok is quite the hoop-jumping ordeal. If you are already depressed it is so fucking overwhelming. So good on you for having the courage to not just straight up give up.

have a question I'd like your opinions on.

have a good friend of mine who suffers from Crohn's, which physically knocks him out of commission a lot. Likewise he's newly married, but although he and his wife are getting along great, they're both saddled with health and financial issues, and as a result, he often gets depressed over it.

Due to the fund issues, he often declines invites due to not having the money. On occasion, I've offered to pay his way if I can tell he'd be bummed at missing the event, but I am always nervous about offering this too often. Mostly because it can be interpreted as me flinging money in his face (which to be fair, I mostly have cuz I'm not married and have no kids), but also because it can hurt someone's pride if they feel like they're often depending on others too much.

It's his birthday this weekend, and I invited him and a few others to see a movie tonight, and he wants to go but mentioned specifically he's low on funds. Would it be a bad gesture to offer to pay for his ticket as an early birthday gift? I want to do it but he seems to be depressed lately according to his wife (who I'm friends with), and I don't want to inadvertently make him feel bad.

also crut, my sympathies as well. Work makes it very difficult for sure (which is why I went for years without needed therapy -- wasn't able to work it in). how far is the drive to the not nearby therapist?

xp you can't affect how someone chooses to perceive something, is kinda my feeling? But from his point of view, if a friend wants to give you a gift because your presence in their life is valuable and they feel it benefits them to spend the time together and be supportive of you, the thing to do is accept and appreciate that you are cared for. Whether or not he can see it that way (or be convinced to), we can't really know?

think thta's a fair response (I struggle w/ attempting to control things I can't control overall!)

You could maybe help by phrasing it like that, that you feel his friendship is a benefit and the cost of a lunch or a ticket or etc is inconsequential to enjoying his company and wellness. I mean as distinguished from being A FAVOR or something.

sorry crut, i wasn't trying to be judgy; shit is hard. i hope u feel better

i dunno, it's the friend's birthday, why not just say, happy birthday, the exact date isn't crucial

Crohn's/colitis and chronic depression go hand on hand. It's a deep body mind thing and it sucks.

yes it is.