why did rock critics hate Queen so much in the 1970s/80s?

GrissoM: Can you post a link to the Rock & Rap Confidential piece? I'd like to read that. I looked around his blog, couldn't find it.

It's this about SXSW, and in the introduction he mentions in passing that he hasn't been writing as much, but hopes to fix that. Not a full piece about R&RC, or why exactly he slowed down.

I'm trying to think of an example of, when there was an artist or act who made music over time that I viscerally disliked, I thought those people were truly evil, worthless and otherwise detrimental to humankind. Yeah, I don't think that I've ever thought that about someone based on making music I didn't like. I might have known musicians personally who were repulsive, but that ain't the same.

marsh give the impression that making music he likes is right, and that making music he strongly dislikes is wrong, and that where an artist/act falls w/r/t his own aesthetic determines whether they are good or bad for humanity. This is boomer narcissism, to which many many critics of his generation succumb.

I so wish Zombie Formalist would do like a AMA about the differences btwn 70s/80s RS/Creem/Hit parader/Lisa Robinson-era (is the reason there has been no thread about her book is because she's terrible and always has been?) rock press milieu vs the 90s-10s one that I reckon most of us worked in.

fucking pseudo-Broadway leatherman shit that makes me embarrassed to be a fag

fwiw i kinda hate Springsteen and '70s Who too

queen rox and u r all gay

they were awesome. they could do anything kinda. but i'm a hard rock fan who loves disco and broadway and glam. so they were kinda made for me.

and pop. and metal.

and rap. and funk.

I love disco, glam, rap, and funk, but despise broadway, and am 50/50 on metal.

Queen for me was always a workmanlike (at their absolute pinnacle) rhythm section, a not-wholly-uninteresting guitarist (the apolitical Tom Morello of his day), and a singer who, to paraphrase one musician's view of trumpeter Freddie Hubbard, exemplified "the Rolls-Royce aesthetic, but without the Rolls-Royce."

Freddie rules so hard

Hubbard too, obv, lol

otm (x2)

Was it Wayne's World that shifted opinions from "they're so serious" to "they're in on the fun"?

they could be serious AND funny. in the same song. which i like.

yeah, i dunno about pegging reassessment to any particular thing. i figure it's more likely generational progression. i grew up w/ queen as a radio staple, both their old classic rock chestnuts and their then-contemporary MTV hits ("another one bites the dust", "under pressure", etc). i didn't have to process them as the opposition to anything i might hold dear, they were just THERE, part of the eternal pop architecture. from the beginning (mine, i mean), it seemed obvious that they were awesome, funny and very clearly in on their own joke - but not so much so as to spoil it.

Anxiety about pop fascism seems to have largely faded, but if one were to dredge it up again, wouldn't the obsessive "nation"-building attempts that seem so ubiquitous now (from reverb to live to e-street to ford) seem to be yearnings toward that hegemonic "glory" of mid-70s arena rock?

For ppl my age and I guess thereabouts (I'm 35) the Wayne's World thing ws MASSIVE, me and loads of guys I knew at school bought (or got copied) Queen's Greatest Hits 1 and 2 and got into Queen overall cos of it

Freddie's voice when he does that "scat" thing that sounds like he has a hairball in his throat is literally the most unpleasant sound in all of nature

Bizarrely, I saw a clip of the famous live aid footage (I think?) and it was just him doing that for like 5 minutes

queen shite

& for dicks

There are still some Queen records I think are great (Don't Stop Me Now, Under Pressure, Another One Bits The Dust) and more that I find teeth-grindingly impossible to listen to (Bo Rap, We Are The Champions, We Will Rock You, Radio Ga Ga, anything involving girls with large bottoms), but they've become the epitome of something really quite horrible in British culture that has nothing to do with why critics hated them in the 70s and 80s. I've met people who still say that Queen are their favourite band and they all seem to be the worst kind of reactionary Middle England types.

I accept that this stigma probably doesn't exist in the US (or at least you have your own version of them, although I'm not sure who that would be).

The stomping beat of "we vill rock you" sounded like jackboots to boomer rockcritics who also saw the arena concert scene as Nazi rallies revisited. "we will rock you" quickly became crowd-pumping music at sports events in the 70s which further explains some of the Fascist association. Truth be told, even Queen's best work could wear pretty thin when you heard it on the radio all day every day. Like their contemporaries Steely Dan & Hall/Oates I think Queen are best appreciated at a distance in measured doses. Constant involuntary exposure to elaborately produced OTT rock bombast such as Queen could make it sound oppressive

This is certainly how i've always understood the criticism. Stadium rock's emphasis on slickness, power and manipulative theatricality was seen to be an echo of Nuremberg. As the slickest and most theatrical, and as a band that played with some martial themes, Queen were the most obvious target for this. Laibach's Geburt Einer Nation is an excellent parody.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwdOX19_ETI

No idea what big queen fans are like over here. Guitar mag dudes, obviously. We hosted a German exchange student in high school and the only CDs she brought with her were the first two greatest hits volumes, but she was mostly just quiet and studious.

are mustaches an echo of Hitler?

Queen was invisible in the US between "I Want To Break Free" and Wayne's World. You wouldn't even hear their older stuff on "classic rock" radio (though "Rock You" and "Champions" were still heard at sporting events). Their records during that time always tanked here, although I do remember "One Vision" getting a little airplay.

Their fans here now seem to be largely casual "classic rock" listeners who also dig Zeppelin and maybe Sabbath and a little Floyd. I've never met a single hard-core Queen fan, or anyone who's even heard their post-1983 records, much less owns any of them.

If I were to meet someone today who claimed that Queen were their favourite band I would automatically make a load of other assumptions about things they like (The Rocky Horror Show, The Great Escape, Jeremy Clarkson). I'm aware this doesn't reflect particularly well on me but I basically associate them with Alan Partridge.

The strange thing about Queen animus is that at least on paper the band wasn't up to too much that Bowie wasn't doing and/or had done, and critics loved Bowie. So maybe with Queen is was a matter of too much, too late? That is, just when everyone (incl. Bowie) was stripping things down or going New Wave, Queen was getting bigger (in every sense).

(I read an interesting interview with Roy Thomas Baker about the Cars, where he notes that as austere as that early stuff is, he still enlists the same massed vocals that marked Queen, it's just the backdrop is not as bombastic.)

And yeah, Queen fandom in the US is I'd argue as casual or culty as ABBA fandom in the US. Everyone loves "Dancing Queen," but in the US you'd never gather ABBA was the biggest pop act of all time or whatever.

One Vision was on the Iron Eagle soundtrack.

Bowie was dogged by allegations of fascist sympathies for years.

That is, just when everyone (incl. Bowie) was stripping things down or going New Wave, Queen was getting bigger (in every sense).

I dunno...Queen's biggest US hits were "Another One Bites the Dust" and "Crazy Little Thing Called Love"
-- not exactly "new wave," but pretty stripped-down compared to "Bohemian Rhapsody" or "We Are The Champions."

the early 80s US rock audience probably was discomfited by Freddie. Like "Another one…" did not work on rock radio, and heaven knows "Hot space" would be regarded by a 38 special fan as disco those fags and blacks listen to. mainstream "rock" fans were more or less openly racist and loudly homophobic in the early 80s.

Whereas in the UK and the rest of the world, they were consistently amongst the biggest bands extant in the 1980s. I think maybe for an NME reader/ Smiths fan / RiP Rig and Panic partisan in the 80s, their fans in the UK must have been like the lumpen proles who had bad hair, were embarrassing from a quasi-class perspective, etc etc…like imagine Boston/Styx/Foreigner/Journey/Asia (all of whom meant nothing in the UK) rolled into one band, then imagine the people who would go to their concerts…

I've never met a single hard-core Queen fan, or anyone who's even heard their post-1983 records, much less owns any of them.

― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat)

If I were to meet someone today who claimed that Queen were their favourite band I would automatically make a load of other assumptions about things they like (The Rocky Horror Show, The Great Escape, Jeremy Clarkson).

― Matt DC

mainstream "rock" fans were more or less openly racist and loudly homophobic in the early 80s.

I think that's painting the audience with far too broad a brush, though those elements were certainly there (and vocal). I always assumed that the "I Want To Break Free" video was what killed their career in the US. Boy George could get away with it, but an established stadium rock hero like Mercury appearing in drag -- and I believe a large portion of Queen's audience at that time didn't know Freddie was gay and/or assumed he wasn't -- was unacceptable.

That ws a v srs video and the other three guys're gay now too?

Tho tbf I guess there's not the same popular/comedic drag tradition in the US and it's a little baffling they used the same video there

I raised myself on Marsh/Xgau/Marcus lists so the Queen hate is something I take for granted but it is interesting. like, those guys weren't only about "true", authentic and socially conscious r'n'r and r'n'b. they supported the more pop styles of soul in particular (Doo Wop, Motown, philly, disco, boogie, english postpunk soul, all types of hip hop, new jack...) as opposed to more widely accepted "quality" soul (Xgau's distaste for 70's blaxploitation was particularly refreshing) which I always found useful but it's far from "common sense" music criticism. there was a promotional (Heart of Rock and Soul) radio interview with Marsh where his love for Nolan Strong is treated as weird which I think is a good example of this schism.

That ws a v srs video and the other three guys're gay now too?

It was enough that Mercury was perceived as being gay to an audience that, for the most part, hadn't given it much thought one way or the other up to that point. A similar fate befell Billy Squier, whose career was over after the "Rock Me Tonite" video. The mere suggestion that a mainstream hard-rock artist might be gay was enough to kill a career in the early 80s in the US.

Tho tbf I guess there's not the same popular/comedic drag tradition in the US and it's a little baffling they used the same video there

There's some tradition of it here, from Milton Berle in the 50s to "Bosom Buddies" in the 80s, but I don't know enough about it to understand where/how/why certain lines were drawn vis-a-vis audience acceptance/perceptions.

like, those guys weren't only about "true", authentic and socially conscious r'n'r and r'n'b. they supported the more pop styles of soul in particular (Doo Wop, Motown, philly, disco, boogie, english postpunk soul, all types of hip hop, new jack...)

Yeah, it always bugs me when Marsh gets pegged as someone for whom anything other than REAL ROOTS-ROCKIN' GUITAR is anathema. ffs, he loves Metal Box.

I'll take yr word for it re: PiL, but I've tried listening to his Sirius show, not the one devoted to the guy his wife co-manages, and it's excruciating. The only new shit he plays are singer-songwriters; he once went on a lengthy Gordon Lightfoot tangent; goes on and on about Doc Pomus and Frank Zappa (whom I would think he wouldn't like until PMRC time)…

was super amused when RRHoF announcement came down, and re: Kiss, he said "maybe I don't know what rock and roll is anymore." yeah, maybe you are not the final authority of what is correct in American music.

I'm not sure I've read anything by him; I think maybe I've dismissed him because his name is "dave marsh"

His stuff was printed extensively in the Baltimore Sun when I was growing up, trying to find my way through the Arts section or whatever. I just presumed he was THE rock critic.

Whereas the parody was acclaimed in the UK, it was considered controversial in the US and banned by MTV[1] and other stations.

I just don't hear many impressive tunes on the four albums I've heard.

this aggression must not stand. "Ogre Battle"? "Father to Son"? "You're My Best Friend?" for crying out loud? The longer I love Queen, the more incredible the early albums sound to me.

Am v hoping Ogre Battle is indeed a good song bc many worlds of things open if so

Queen was invisible in the US between "I Want To Break Free" and Wayne's World. You wouldn't even hear their older stuff on "classic rock" radio (though "Rock You" and "Champions" were still heard at sporting events).

Wait, is this true? Even as a kid, I think I was fairly familiar with "Bohemian Rhapsody" from (Cdn) classic rock radio pre-92?

'Ogre Battle' fucking rules.

Personally, I couldn't live without their run of albums between Queen and Jazz, and I find plenty to enjoy on the albums that came after also.

'we will rock you'/'we are the champions' never left and 'radio gaga', 'a kind of magic', and 'i want it all' were minor hits plus there was highlander (all the queen fans i knew pre-waynes world were highlander dorks). they had a big commercial peak and crashed w/ the next release and then kinda lingered neither gone nor really here, it happens. axl talking them up constantly helped and metallica covering 'stone cold crazy' helped (and personally 'terminator x to the edge of panic' helped) and then waynes world and the concert w/ freddies death sorta cemented the rehabilitation in america. rush seems like a real good comparison point - 70s success turning into very early 80s commercial peak prompted by adapting to some sound of the day, followed by quick predictable fall from fashion, an exile period w/ a core of nerdy fans keeping the faith, followed by early 90s quasi comeback prompted by new material as well as reissue or renewed focus on old classic material, w/ this last act cementing the band's brand and making rrhof selection inevitable even though at one point just a few years earlier their candidacy would have seemed doomed.

Yep, that sounds more accurate to me.

I've been fostering a love of Queen albums lately after growing up on the hits, there are really some amazing deep cuts (although I prefer the late 70s stuff to the first 4 albums): http://narrowcast.blogspot.com/2014/03/deep-album-cuts-vol-14-queen.html

I think one of the big US/UK divides is that even after post-Wayne's World resurgence, I never even heard of the posthumous album Made In Heaven, which apparently sold a ton in other countries

The solo to 'Crazy Little Thing Called Love' was done on an Esquire, I think, even though he used a Tele in the vid.

this is one of my fave things on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ_OamX-PA8

I think there's a video on Youtube from the early '80s where he just demonstrates riff after riff...

Spent the afternoon reading this thread, it was fun!

Few rock bands had every one of its members write songs, all of which were hits in some chart or other.

I just noticed that every member of Madness wrote songs - that's seven writers. I don't know if they all wrote hits but at least five of them did.

TS: Queen vs Madness

I'm afraid the Queen revival is over. In New Zealand.

(Note: smug man with cellphone = embattled deputy prime minister)

‘Listen up’ – Winston Peters plays Queen’s Radio Ga Ga to journalists during questioning of SFO investigation
- https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/-listen-up-winston-peters-plays-queen-s-radio-ga-journalists-during-questioning-sfo-investigation

Just hope no politician tries to ruin the Disposable Heroes of Hiphoprisy

Dave Marsh otm