SOLAR POWER

http://www.pressherald.com/news/Net-zero_energy_homes_a_building_trend_.html

envious

The next cool thing will be putting your hetapump or watever on the DC bus. 80% of what you have in your home runs on DC and solar panels produce DC. DC to DC conversion is much more efficient than DC-AC-DC. Some of the AC-DC conversion is criminally inefficient <50% doesn't get wasted.

Are you doing solar thermal for your hot water as well? Solar thermal with an electric/gas boost is very popular down here, probably the best playback for solar, plus you get storage.

NO to solar for hot water, not really a good roofspace for it right now (trees)

so you could have yoru whole house on DC if you just ran it all from solar panels? WHat abotu connection to the grid? have yoru house get inverted to dc from the street?

Pretty much, although it would be a bit heath robinson at the moment. The infrastructure in terms of plugs and sockets, DC-DC converters isn't there yet but its coming. Most of the DC focus has been in data centres at 380V and commercial lighting at 48V but 3 wire 120V DC would be pretty effective in the home.

You'd have to invert/rectify for a 2 way grid connection but that would be more efficient than all the little wall warts you currently have.

lotta new construction has 5 VDC built in, it's funny because aiui USB was never intended as a power delivery source, just data.

as Ed says, DC appliances for the home are coming soon/already here - some DC fridges are on the market now.

we'll probably still see long distance grid transmission in AC, but more and more DC at a local level - see also all the discussion around microgrids, once again folks in developing countries can leapfrog technology like they did w/cell phone infrastructure and have localized power grids.

I think you'd still have to have batteries or some other form of energy storage (flywheel etc, I have seen all kinds of zany ideas) to use solar-generated DC effectively in a home DC environment. That storage seems like the weak link in all of this right now, although lithium ion has promise it is very expensive.

this summer I am gonna put a small 300-400 watt kit together to run our chest freezer and whatever else I can throw on the inverter without hitting 50% depth of discharge on the batteries. I'll probably use MK Deka AGM type, my understanding is that they're good for 5-7 years depending on how hard you cycle them.

Deka, Trojan, Sonnenschien seem to be the brands that people talk about the most as far as storage goes right now. What brand of BMS/Charge controller are you going to use?

well Outback would be my top choice, and Morningstar my second. Since the Outbacks are around $500, I think I'll probably use an MPPT Morningstar with a 45 amp limit (maybe $350?)- both those brands have high input voltage limits so you can stack the panels in series to reduce voltage drop. If my budget can't handle it, I'll put the panels in parallel, use a Xantrex C35, and upgrade later.

feasibility of generating wind power? I mean you would have to have a really windy location I would think to get any juice

Xantrex really is the best I can think of where solar +storage are concerned. I was at a solar trade fair last week and a local integrator that has previously been all about Xantrex was repping for a Chinese brand called Solax, although when questioned they hadn't installed many.

Outback and Midnite are very popular with the Northern California Weed growing crowd.

Wind, wind isn't particularly economical at small scale, the turbines are OK but you then have to build a sacking great tower to get it to a height that will lift it out of the wind shadow of trees and other structures. Permitting for a decent size wind tower is going to be way, way harder than solar.

what aboout many many littel windmills?
they woudl be cute anyway

My concern is how to store power generated from solar in the summertime that is excess from what you need, so you can use it later in winter months. Some kind of huge batteries? would the power stay for months?
somehow convert the power to a fuel?

omfg let us ridicule these scum (C & P'd from National Report so as not to give them clicks)

<National Report>This week, a scientific research facility in Wyoming made a startling discovery that is certain to change the way millions of Americans look at the environmentalism movement, after they found conclusive evidence that solar panels not only convert the sun’s energy into usable energy, but that they are also draining the sun of its own energy, possibly with catastrophic consequences far worse than global warming.
Scientists at the Wyoming Institute of Technology, a privately-owned think tank located in Cheyenne, Wyoming, discovered that energy radiated from the sun isn’t merely captured in solar panels, but that energy is directly physically drawn from the sun by those panels, in a process they refer to as “forced photovoltaic drainage.”
“Put into laymen’s terms, the solar panels capture the sun’s energy, but pull on the sun over time, forcing more energy to be released than the sun is actually producing,” WIT claims in a scientific white paper published on Wednesday. “Imagine a waterfall, dumping water. But you aren’t catching the water in buckets, but rather sucking it in with a vacuum cleaner. Eventually, you’re going to suck in so much water that you drain the river above that waterfall completely.”

WIT is adamant that there’s no immediate danger, however. “Currently, solar panels are an energy niche, and do not pose a serious risk to the sun. But if we converted our grids to solar energy in a big way, with panels on domestic homes and commercial businesses, and paving our parking lots with panels, we’d start seeing very serious problems over time. If every home in the world had solar panels on their roofs, global temperatures would drop by as much as thirty degrees over twenty years, and the sun could die out within three hundred to four hundred years.”
The study was commissioned in August 2011 by the Halliburton corporation, who wanted to learn if the energy giant should start manufacturing and selling solar panels domestically and internationally. Halliburton’s executives wanted to know more about the sustainability of solar energy and how photovoltaic technology might evolve over the next ten years. But based on the findings of WIT’s research in the field, Halliburton revealed on Friday that they will not be entering the solar energy market.
“Solar panels destroying the sun could potentially be the worst man-made climate disaster in the history of the world, and Halliburton will not be taking part in that,” the company stated in a press release issued Friday morning. “It’s obvious, based on the findings of this neutral scientific research group, that humans needs to become more dependent on fossil fuels like oil and coal, not less. Because these so-called `green technologies’ are far more dangerous to the Earth than any hydrofracking operation or deep-water drilling station. What good is clean air when our very sun is no longer functional?”
- See more at: http://nationalreport.net/solar-panels-drain-suns-energy-experts-say/#sthash.w1rwE6tn.dpuf

oh n/m it's a parody site

http://www.thermodynamicpanelsuk.com/

anyone knwo much abotu this

solar leasing vs. owning - which is the better?

even w/o my knowledge of the industry, as a homeowner I'd never lease:

http://www.pv-tech.org/guest_blog/the_true_costs_of_solar_leasing

leases don't make sense for residences afaik

Solar Tariffs Seem Certain To Hurt U.S. Installation Market

http://www.revisionenergy.com/maine-nh-solar-financing-loans.php

thinking of doing this

Does anyone have any thoughts about solar roadways?

(Is there a separate thread where it's being discussed?)

fuckin Nevada, it blows my mind

thanks to WmC for the link

http://www.vox.com/2016/1/20/10793732/nevada-solar-industry-explained

not sure what can be done at this point, the brazen bait-and-switch move here is just insane

yeah this is ridiculous and will bite them in the ass

they're not the only states where investor-owned utilities are trying to roll back net-energy-metering - distributed generation systems are basically a death knell for the traditional utility distribution system model

awful

but no fear, the Republican Party is almost dead

PUC is caving on the retroactive issue, hopefully:

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/nevada-puc-to-reconsider-grandfathering-rooftop-solar-customers-into-new-ne

there's no way this entire debacle doesn't get reversed at some pt imo - either because of lawsuits or political pressure

boo

I haven't posted or even been on ILX for a long time but this seems like a good time to decloak.

Naturally net-metering is important but providing parity payment is unsustainable and although the way it was handled in Nevada was utterly boneheaded it probably had to go in time. My understanding was that NV provided no-sunset for parity net metering payments and rather than closing the scheme for new installs pulled the rug from under existing owners. In a market with so many PPAs and people having bought into sola under assumptions of payback over time that was plain wrong.

Over here in Australia we've had all kinds of incentive scheme from Carbo based credits, generous (66c/kWh) and less generous gross metering, and net metering. Currently every new customer gets the carbon credit (Renewable Energy Target) up front and a net metering create of ~5c/kWh for the avoided wholesale cost of electricity. There is no credit for the avoided transmission and distribution costs and the benefit that that solar offers the network is not compensated for - that said the extra costs that solar customers (and those with big A/Cs and pools) impose not he network are not fairly distributed either.

All of this is leading to much more generous pricing and compensation models. We've had a regulatory process (called Power of Choice) which is leading to more cost reflective network pricing (Residential Demand Charges and or Time of Use) which will penalise A/C use and reduce the self-consumption benefit of solar (without storage). Further off It something I've been working on if the Local Generation Network Credit which is a proposed mechanism for compensating distributed generator owners for the value they do offer the network. It will go some way to recognise that solar on a residential zone sub at 2pm is not very useful but at 4pm it is very useful. There's a good description of the way it works in other jurisdictions in the briefing paper for one of the workshops I've been involved in.

https://www.uts.edu.au/sites/default/files/LNCVNM_towards_an_LNC_methodology.pdf

The TL;DR on this: this shit is complicated

thanks, gonna dig into that when I have time.

I am sympathetic to the "costs of distribution" argument in terms of reforming net metering, but as you note the retroactive penalty was where the PUC really fucked up in NV.

CA PUC smarter than NV PUC:

http://www.sfgate.com/business/article/Solar-companies-and-customers-win-big-in-6790872.php

great news

congress looking into some pre-emptive legislation forbidding retroactive net metering changes:

http://www.pv-magazine.com/news/details/beitrag/us-senators-move-to-preserve-solar-net-metering-through-energy-bill-amendment_100023050/#axzz3z6VXCpq9

Hope that passes, good on them. Murkowski being in charge is of course disgusting and counterproductive.

Ah but when everyone has a telsa powerwall the grid will no longer be of any concern!

incorrect, those batteries don't store enough power to run a house, the stored power is used for peak shaving and load reduction

they also quietly discontinued the larger model last week:

http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/Tesla-Discontinues-10kWh-Powerwall-Home-Battery

cuz guess what? they are just too expensive.

sad lol

someone really needs to crack this battery storage issue

i'm probably going to do a solar lease. I know this doesn't give me the tax benefits purchase would do, but I already owe the IRS money so on a monthly basis leasing saves me more. I'm guessing that CA already worked out the issues that are plaguing NV and ruining the industry for them over there.

recent CA PUC ruling preserving net metering is posted upthread

oddly I JUST NOW got a CREDO email saying that they are challenging that. Fuckers.

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/2016/mar/08/utilities-net-metering-decision/

so not gonna happen

good range of comments on that article

Galatians! lol

the key is to convert solar power to heated magma to be used later!

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/12/the-solar-industry-has-paid-off-its-carbon-debts/510308/

Well that's neat

more trade war details for anyone who is interested

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/suniva-solarworld-file-new-trade-remedy-proposals#gs.96pEz6E

as I mentioned in the Global Warming thread, one of the big problems with all of this is that four years isn't a long enough window to actually build cell factories if the tariffs that make them cost-effective disappear after that point.

Circa 1980 I bought a Casio solar-powered calculator, just the kind that does basic arithmetic operations. It has only just now bit the dust, after providing me with 37 years of faithful service and not a single battery required, let alone daily recharging. It was perfection of its kind. Of course, with mobile phones now performing the same functions, I will never be able to replace it.

Ha! I have such a Casio, bought at about the same time, and it's still working fine.

no the tax credit is 26% if you get it installed in 2020 - then, if the credit is more than your tax burden, you can spread the credit out over an up-to-five-year period. but it's a one-time credit, 26% of your total cost *including* installation.

the difference in payback times between states is based entirely on state or utility-based incentives, so if you have time dig in to the state incentives on that page.

According to that site it looks like IL offers no rebates or tax incentives.

ah yeah looks like the incentives ran out (that happens frequently)

this might help:

There is still hope for residents of Springfield and Chicago, which each have their own solar grant programs. Your installer (click here to see what you can save with solar power on your home) will give you all the details on those and any other grants and rebates you may qualify for.

for what it's worth I'm a big fan of the SMA inverters that have an optional outlet you can install that provides 15-amp 120V power during the day if there is a power outage

SMA is so bloody expensive though. Buy Chinese either Ginlong or Sungrow. I’ve visited both their factories and their quality systems are great. I commissioned a full quality audit on Ginlong a few years back and they rated really highly and I only ever had one quality issue in dealing with them over 1000s of installs. (a weird clipping issue at maximum output that got solved in subsequent models)

If you have a difficult roof or shading issues, get SolarEdge.

I agree with Ed, Sungrow is good as well and SolarEdge is the best choice for shaded roofs - SMA won't work well with shade

I just *really* like the Secure Power Supply feature on SMA

also, Ed I would love to hear the gory details about that clipping issue if you are so inclined

We've got an ideal house and roof for a lot of this, so we'll see what the guy says tomorrow.

Just got off the phone with a good friend of mine who deals with these issues on a regular basis, and he is dubious about solar. Very bullish on geothermal though, because it's a constant. There's nothing to generate, no changing costs or production. It just does this thing. Vs. solar, which is beholden to myriad other factors.

He also, as Karl noted above, stressed the importance of simple shit, like insulation, to making sure your home is as efficient as possible. Doesn't matter where your power or heat or cooling is coming from if you lose half of it through your walls and windows.

Quick question: if I'm about to talk to this guy about solar, what specific questions do you think I should I ask him? What answers would be most useful for someone on the fence?

estimated payback time

price difference for different inverter options as Ed noted (Sungrow, Solar Edge, SMA if you want to spend a bit more for a backup outlet)

I dunno, what are your on-the-fence concerns? Like for example, this:

There's nothing to generate, no changing costs or production. It just does this thing. Vs. solar, which is beholden to myriad other factors.

I really don't agree with - solar is maintenance free, by design. set it and forget it. And the production is very consistent within seasonal variation. I've talked to people still getting 70% output from their Motorola panels made in the 1970s.

The guy I talked to was great, helped a lot. Estimated payback time with more efficient and reliable (which is to say, more expensive) panels could be about 7 years, which is not bad. And cost would in theory be reduced by 40% or so once you take into account tax rebates and SRECs and whatnot, with a lot of that coming back to you more or less the first year. Though it's still a *considerable* initial cash expenditure. Obviously a lower outright price would be better than a higher price with a promise of refunds, but that's not where we're at.

I think my friend's thing with geothermal is that the energy being generated is constant. It's not linked to sun or shade or snow or cloud cover or whatever, it's just there, year-round. There is no degradation of panels or reduction of panel efficiency, there is no fear of needing (or wanting) to upgrade in the near future, and it covers the biggest drag on a lot of homes, heating and cooling. Of course, it costs a lot more to install! But for example, solar, the Panasonic panels the guy prefers (with iirc solar edge inverter) have a 25 year warranty, which is great ... except who knows how things will look in 25 years, in terms of technology and options and the like. A similar consideration is that when it comes time for a new roof, the panels have to be removed and replaced, too, which could add thousands to the cost. And so on.

There is no degradation of panels or reduction of panel efficiency

this is not a thing that happens, panels have a 25-year output warranty for a reason, and work for even longer as noted above

no fear of needing (or wanting) to upgrade in the near future

also not an issue - don't replace existing panels to upgrade, just add more on a newer inverter.

the biggest drag on a lot of homes, heating and cooling

OK this I agree with.

fwiw my parents have had many painful and expensive difficulties with their geothermal system, they have had no issue with the solar at all.

sure there's an early-adopter price tag still. but as you have seen, the numbers are good in terms of IRR.

My mom has geothermal and loves it, but is not really a candidate for solar.

And panels absolutely do degrade, however slightly. So says the guy I just spoke with and everything I've seen. The cheaper the panel, the quicker (or more) they will start to degrade. The more expensive the panel (like the ones he was pitching), the better they work and the longer they work before any significantly reduced returns (plus better warranties). Granted, around 1% annual decline in productivity is not that big, but that still means 10% after 10 years, and so on, which is not nothing. If we were to, say, want to sell our house in ten years, solar may factor as a selling point, but esp. if we can say it offsets 100% of the house's consumption. It's still good to say 90%, or 85%, but it may not hit that magic psychological number, imo, to get the ideal ROI.

And adding to the system in the future obviously costs money, too. Just things to consider.

it's way less than 1% a year degradation, more like 1/4 of a %

there's a reason they guarantee >80% output for 25 years, 1% a year would be a lot more than that

and yeah you are correct that "100% coverage" is often not a good idea in terms of ROI

Just googling I saw something like an average of .5% annual degradation, and that's linked, like output and efficiency, to quality, which is to say, cost. But yeah, that's a relatively minor concern. Degradation, not cost, that is. A higher priced system here would go for around $22K. A lower cost system would go for around $18k. Both are huge numbers, and if you finance, obviously that number goes up.

fwiw that amount sounds just about right for installed cost on 5-6 KW

I just got his formal pitch, if you're curious, but it includes:

Panel degradation rate: 3% in year 1; 0.26% years 2-25 - 90% efficient @ yr 25

ah that's really interesting! thanks. I did not know that more degradation was assumed in year 1.

After saying my roof isn't great for solar I'm now starting to thing I should jump on this. The Roof is bad because it is flat and mainly taken up by my roof deck, but havingng Saturday up their a lot the shading on the exposed parts isn't actually as bad as I thought and now you can get a 400W standard size panel(SunPower), I could actually get some useful production out of it. There's an outside chance I could squeeze 6 on the eastern end of the roof and 2 on the western end, really its probably 4 and 2 but that could still be 2.4kW. Panels would probably have to be flat rather than on tilt frames or the homeowners association would flip and the shading means I'd have to have micro inverters (Enphase) or optimisers (SolarEdge) to get the best out of a system.

I've had the Enphase option priced out and it comes in at AU$3.74/W which makes me wince, especially as we won't qualify for the current VIC government rebate which would bring that down. I've got a mate going through the same process and his (much bigger) system is quoted out at $1.22/W or AU$1.08/W if he gets the rebate. Thats on a SolarEdge System with optimisers and and Longi 350W Mono PERC panels.

Not that it's really about payback but It would take me about 10 years to breakeven on that

26% solar tax credit extended for 2 years as part of the COVID bill, definitely a good thing

https://www.solarpowerworldonline.com/2020/12/solar-investment-tax-credit-extended-at-26-for-two-additional-years/

even better news

https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2022/07/28/solar-investment-tax-credit-to-be-extended-10-years-at-30/

Dunno if I mentioned it, but we did end up getting solar and have been very happy with it so far.

what inverter type, do you know?

also, Josh, note this key provision:

"The tax credit applies to residential adopters of solar technology. If the bill is passed, the 30% credit will be retroactively applied to anyone who installed their system since the beginning of 2022."

We had it done in 2020, so already got whatever rebates and whatnot we were expecting.

As for inverter type, I believe we have a Solar Edge Single Phase Inverter with HD-Wave.