sociolinguistic things to do/avoid while having a conversation with another musician

But there are certain kinds of icky things that people may say to encourage you when they hear you are making some attempt to play music in some fashion, that are best to avoid hearing altogether if you can, lest they irritate and cause one of the ego eruptions that the soul is heir to.

As an aside, another way to mentally control or deal with things that cause solar flares of the ego or otherwise perturb is to find the most exact concise picturesque memorable description of the offending phenomena. This is like a magical counter spell against the curse that may be put on you.

But sooner or later at a weak moment something will get to you, it has to come around sometime, like a leap day or setting the clock back or forward.

So for me the other day I was kind of frazzled and stretched a little thing and I didn't really see anybody I knew well enough at the venue I was at so I talked to one guy I knew a little bit and he was giving me some advice and he was nice about it but it was basically targeted it somebody who was much better than me, somebody whose career was in music, and I was kind of thinking "Gee, that's nice but I'm not at that level and I've got a lot of other things going on which make it not really feasible at this point and I really probably should have stayed home and practiced some more instead of coming out to this show and talking to you."

Then I broke another rule, after the show was over, I made a pop music reference to the show-boating rising star jazz drummer and he didn't get it and I got annoyed for miscalculating,although lots of such drummers would probably have gotten the reference.

Anyway I think what happened was I was in a little bit of an edgy mood that day and I went out hoping that take the edge off. Usually what happens is one of two things- either I see kind of a spot for me and I end up relaxing and having a good time, or I see that the place is too crowded and go home. This was kind of a rare in-between time when it didn't turn out either of those ways and I got further perturbed.

So I don't know if I answered anything really specific about dealing with musicians maybe just more about socializing in general with the example involving people who are musicians.

Time for new screenname

so if i am to summarize, talking with musicians is (and sometimes is not) a minefield? do other people share this belief?

this is one of the irrational things that has kept me away from trying to make/making music for such a long time -- the acute sensation that i was not (and would never be) an inside member of this particular group, that i was not welcome. it's not rational or true, but there it is.

As an aside, another way to mentally control or deal with things that cause solar flares of the ego or otherwise perturb is to find the most exact concise picturesque memorable description of the offending phenomena. This is like a magical counter spell against the curse that may be put on you.
skip if you hate anecdotes -
when i was 23 or so, this guy i was dating had a bunch of dudes from his old band come visit and they stayed with him. i was hanging out at his apt when they got there, so he couldn't just like tell me to leave and he had to introduce me to them. after a while of settling in, they started talking about something or other related to music and this guy was like "oh we're boring her, we're talking shop" and 1) i had never heard the term "talking shop" before, so i asked what it meant 2) he assumed this meant that i was sick of hearing them talk (which i wasn't, i just asked a question). i was very interested in what they had to say, i just suddenly felt that i wasn't welcome, i guess. i'm not sure this would happen today, but who knows? later i did have a very pleasant conversation with one of his friends and he totally (memorably) treated me like a normal person, like an equal who had thoughts that were worth hearing. and i did!

but man, it's so easy to refer back to this incident when the opportunity to talk with someone pops up. and then not talk to anyone. i'm not shy, but i firmly don't like going where i'm not welcome. i guess that's partially what motivated me to ask this question.

also i think this is good advice -- just out of curiosity, do you say your name? do you say "i'm a DJ too" if they are total strangers or do they know who you are by name? i am a total failure at introducing myself if memory serves.

so i have to script these conversations out. smile, say hello, give a sincere, positive, general observation about their craft (this tends to be difficult if i'm only lukewarm on it and can also backfire if it's too obvious or obsequious), ask what they're up to or when they're playing next (always seems to go over well), wrap it up with a "nice to meet you" and shake hands before i say something stupid.

so if i am to summarize, talking with musicians is (and sometimes is not) a minefield? do other people share this belief?

Hanging around with musicians can be one of those fraught situations - and some types are more prone to this than others - where egos are at stake or in play and, more importantly, somebody suspects that somebody else Wants Something From Them. As long as you are cool and they are cool, everything is cool. If not, it is the equivalent of one of those nights when you go to a party against your better instincts that maybe you should have stayed home and watched a black-and-white movie, made some headway on the book you were reading, or caught up on your sleep.

isn't it musicians, being performers, who are the ones that drew first blood?
(in terms of imposing an exchange)

Are you saying that by putting on the performance they are obligated to deal with the public?

obligated in the same way a politician who wants votes engages with constituency.

i've never thought about it like that before. i don't know if i agree, but I have a lot of experience watching people talk with politicians, so it's a strange new way for me to consider these interactions.

also, i have come to another conclusion -- usually i can tell whether someone is willing to talk with me or not, so if i make it past the first 10 seconds and see that the person isn't going to completely reject the idea of having a conversation with me, i can just be my usual self and abort mission when necessary. (i mean no doy, just like "do not try to talk with someone while they are clearly doing something else and are not available for conversation" i know that one very well! in a professional/work-related setting, colleagues ask me questions every day when i am trying to do something else and they seem to have 0 regard for my need to finish the thing that i am doing when they interrupted me. that is a clear conversational no-no)

i started this thread with the idea that people would tell me stuff that they found irritating specifically as musicians, but i know in general what people find irritating and it's not really a mystery. also, if someone finds me genuinely irritating, i can usually tell pretty quickly. i guess i wanted to avoid being disappointed by people! i'm still curious about the nature of these conversational interactions, but i'm done trying to figure out the best approach bc i only really have one at my disposal.

nardwuar irritates a lot of musicians! but he wins them over! i guess technically he's not an outsider but he poses as one. "Who are you?!" "And you play...?"

I do notice he never asks, "who are your influences?"
instead he gives them presents of their influences.

I accidentally posted about this on the thread what is going on in your musical life this will irritate someone over there and we will get a data point.

Was the original intention of the thread a solicitation for musicians to tell you what irritates them so that you can avoid such behavior? Does this approach ever really work?

haha, yes
sometimes

usually it confirms what i already know so i can proceed confidently
also it's interesting to see what people find irritating

and also its interesting to try to figure out indicators for how people identify someone as insider/outsider and what happens after that

I have to admit the "what do you guys sound like?" question that comes up when I mention my work/band frustrates me a teeny bit. Mainly because I dont know how to answer it! And when I try to, I inevitably get blank looks when bands or genres go unrecognised.

On reflection tho such questions less often come from fellow musos. Me and my jam buddies/friends in bands just talk shop a lot usually - gear tech, records we're into this week. that kinda thing.

some solid practical conversation tips here for projecting confidence and assertiveness

(posting not because i think anyone here needs them, just because the response to the writer's question is really insightful about how we project certain things (submissiveness, permission-asking) when it would be more effective for us to project other things (assertiveness, confidence). and then she describes how to do that)

good advice, imo!

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/music/2014/06/fan_landers_mentor_abuse.php#more

A long-time engineer friend of mine-- real good friends, wedding invitees etc.-- he finished work on a record recently. I am deeply in love with the artist's music. I contributed four days of labour and $6k of out-of-pocket expenses to help work on it (I threw a bunch of her songs on some orchestral sessions I was conducting). This engineer friend, who was producing and mixing the project, has a tendency to work hermetically, listening to his work only in his own closed environments and not doing any mix-comparison. As a result, the mixes that I heard, the vocals were washy, low, and not-powerful. Sounded good but not in fighting form. Would not resonate globally. I was feeling crushed, I had such high hopes for the record.

Not realizing that the mixes I was listening to were actually final masters, and with a glimmer of hope that the record could be fixes, I called him up to express this concern. His voice raised several volume levels and he said, "I DON'T GIVE A FUCK WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT MY WORK." The conversation kind of petered out and we haven't talked since.

There's a part of my brain that's always thinking prescriptively when I'm hearing friends' music, I'm always thinking "man I'd love it if you'd sing more like this, or use this guitar". Voicing these thoughts, too, I think it's like "what have I got to lose?" because if the subject disagrees, it'll only galvanize their resolve toward their original path. At least, that's how I respond to criticism.

But this event, and thinking too about how often my thoughts have "not penetrated", have make me wonder. Is there any benefit in telling your friends the truth, as you see it, about their work?

I try not to offer my opinion unless someone asks for it under those (and most) circumstances, but I have no idea -- sounds like there are many factors involved. My experience with giving feedback has usually included me asking what type of feedback is being requested -- am I proofreading, offering suggestions, confirming that things "work", giving my general impressions as a typical consumer of the thing, whatever. Helps to cut down on effort spent in vain, esp when the thing in question is a 600 page book and feelings are important (ie my partner wrote the book).

I learned something this weekend! I don't need to constantly tell people that I am a beginner, esp if I want them to not dismiss me immediately. It's ok to tell them if they ask, but I do not *need* to volunteer this information.

One of my co-workers has a grotesque level of self-confidence, saying stuff like, "this is what makes top hits!" and it is comforting to hear, bc he's taking responsibility for his intention.

I can relate to this:

There's a part of my brain that's always thinking prescriptively when I'm hearing friends' music, I'm always thinking "man I'd love it if you'd sing more like this, or use this guitar".

But winced at:

Not realizing that the mixes I was listening to were actually final masters...

I once had somebody say something like, on hearing my studio-recorded, mastered album: "These songs are good, maybe if you went back and recorded them again in a real studio you'd get more people to respond." Uh, no, what you just heard was already the result of me going back and re-recording my home demos in a real studio. (The person who said it should've known that, too.)

In any case, that's pretty much the dividing line for me. If somebody says, "This is a work in progress, what do you think?" that's the time to tell them what you think should change, or what you would do differently. If someone says, "This is done, what do you think?" that's the time to home in on the aspects of it that you liked the most or that you'd want to hear more of in the future (and maybe just ignore the parts you didn't like), because at that point the project is done, and the next project is what your feedback can impact.

if their music sucks you should tell them (of course i never do that)

agreed, only say nice things after mastering is done, or at least wait six months to roll out the constructive criticism (and then only when asked for it).

also, it's really hard to accept criticism in the moment. i know i get defensive about it, at least from certain people, but eventually it sinks in and ends up being useful.

I have a professional musician friend who will only give criticism if I show him anything I'm working on. At first I felt very downhearted about this but later realised his advice was always constructive and that if he liked something, he wouldn't tell you. Problem is people only seem to say what they don't like about a production in my experience.

i have learned a lot about this topic this year by trial and error.

curious to hear your observations

since you asked -- for starters, the early noob phase where i didn't know anyone and had to introduce myself over and over to people (january-july or so?) was genuinely painful to endure (but necessary). it was not unlike other experiences i've had where i've been placed into situations where i stick out like a sore thumb and i have to navigate various levels of social finesse while maintaining my dignity. i had to learn to distance myself from my "self" in order to operate on a functional level. every time i saw someone i had talked with before, i had to wave/walk over and say hi, make some small talk, decide whether or not this person wants to keep talking with me or not…it's a lot going on beyond the actual conversation that's happening. it's also worth noting that i am not just a noob, but a woman in a male-dominated environment. anil ananthaswamy's book "the man who wasn't there" gave me a lot of insight about self-consciousness. it's pretty lite science writing but i found it interesting/helpful. july-december was much MUCH better than january-june tbrr.

DO -- remind people what your name is & how they know you, mention if you have mutual friends (this will become easier), remember that you will probably have to make the first move toward conversation 100% of the time
DON'T -- expect anyone to remember you unless you have a really pleasant conversation and sometimes not even then (there were lots of don'ts I already knew, no need to list those)

the advice i received to "go to shows and talk with people" has been fruitful, and i believe it's good advice given with my best interests in mind. however, in executing this advice, it's a different experience when you are a woman in a male-dominated environment. to my credit, i am relatively friendly and not shy even when i'm flying solo (which is most of the time) and not the sort of person who is intimidated by someone's station or artistic prowess in comparison to my own. i'm not ~afraid of~ talking with anyone. this is where "being myself" has been useful. I'm no genius but as it turns out I know how to be sociolinguistically appropriate when someone is speaking my language. Most people are actually pretty cool and easy to talk with once they decide that I'm worth talking to! Some people are not. Whenever anyone reacts to me with hostility, I wonder what's wrong with them, not what's wrong with me. By the time I went to see the final show of the 25th anniversary of Hamid Drake & Michael Zerang's winter solstice performances, it kind of felt like the end of camp, like I had been through the wringer and lived.

Overall, I learned a lot! I've got a zillion anecdotes but I also learned from watching others not to dish, esp not on a public forum!! ;)

yikes

I generally avoid all that by never telling anyone I'm a musician.

that would make finding people who want to play music with me kind of hard.

Ah, of course!

You have probably met friends of mine or at a minimum friends of friends -- I have a few close friends who are out at those kinds of shows in Chicago all the time, and at least one who plays out a lot. ( D@N!EL WY(H3 )

I do indeed!

I mean I do know him, but I have no idea how you know each other. I'll probably see him a week from tomorrow in fact!

nice! I will ilx mail you to tell him I say hi.

another thing i have learned: that everyone who is generally around my age +/- 10 years and interested in the same general things has at least one mutual friend, esp when you factor in internet friends. figuring out connections between people always makes me happy.

(i sent you a fb msg w my email because the ilx robot doesn't allow replies)