the nascent appeal of managerial competency

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the reason for c&p isn't just cuz i thought moyes would be out of his depth, many many people thought that, so much as the amount of people who were arguing with me after the fa cup final about the significance of martinez' victory and of moyes' crappy record vs the big teams during his time at everton

not so much that moyes himself is shit (there is a post up there about his virtues, none of which he displayed this season) save that as good as his everton side were relative to expenditure, he could very seldom devise a way to defeat good sides, let alone outplay them as martinez managed a few times with a team far below everton in terms of resources

and it really showed this season, he could mostly rely on rvp or twp win games vs crap sides but his record vs the top eight was atrocious, just a single win

so when someone like jonathan wilson, one of the vanishingly small number of intelligent british fitba hacks and someone who has probably watched twenty times more fitba than i ever will, comes out with shit like this today....

Fans will argue whether Moyes was ever cut out to be United manager, but that is to slightly miss the point. Managers and players rarely fit neatly into categories. There aren't A-grade manager and B-grade managers and so on down the line: there are merely managers who are right for a particular job in particular circumstances and those who are not.

then i think he is completely wrong, and it reflects poorly on him that he thought moyes was still worth persevering with even last month

moyes' tenure at manchester united and martinez' eclipsing of moyes' best ever points total with four games to go in his first season exactly shows that there are 'B-grade' managers who are fine up to a certain level, and in martinez' case someone who could potentially be a success at one of the best teams in europe in the future

Little Saint Hugh of Lincoln (nakhchivan), Tuesday, 22 April 2014 22:21 (ten years ago) link

four weeks pass...

god I love this thread

the only thing worse than being tweeted about (darraghmac), Wednesday, 21 May 2014 22:55 (nine years ago) link

one year passes...

avb, mourinho FOUND OUT

MONKEY had been BUMMED by the GHOST of the late prancing paedophile (darraghmac), Wednesday, 4 November 2015 04:13 (eight years ago) link

Managing yr way out of a slump looks like a very specific skill separate from base competency. Moyes never had it, which should have been apparent from his time at Everton, but it has been interesting to see Klopp, Mourinho, AVB to some extent and Allegri all struggle with it too recently.

Al Ain Delon (ShariVari), Wednesday, 4 November 2015 10:17 (eight years ago) link

i'd say the absolute intolerance of slumps is to do with this - once it's a slump you've only got a few games before the sack, in the vast majority of cases.

doing my Objectives, handling some intense stuff (LocalGarda), Wednesday, 4 November 2015 10:55 (eight years ago) link

True for ordinary managers but Klopp, Favre and AVB have been allowed to write their own exits and opted to quit / not extend contracts rather than get sacked.

Al Ain Delon (ShariVari), Wednesday, 4 November 2015 12:23 (eight years ago) link

The last couple of seasons have been full of managers who initially look good managing midtable teams and then bomb. They are fine when it comes to sorting out someone else's mistakes but absolutely clueless when it comes to addressing their own - Pardew, Bruce, Redknapp etc.

Obviously Mourinho etc are three or four cuts above that lot but I think that managing your way out of a slump requires an admission that you're making mistakes, and that your ideas don't work any more. There's a degree of humility required that a lot of managers just don't possess. Or if they do, they're too ineffectual to do much in the first place.

In terms of managing their way out of a slump, the two most consistently successful managers have been Wenger and Martinez, who have also benefited from unusually supportive Chairmen.

Matt DC, Wednesday, 4 November 2015 12:29 (eight years ago) link

Not really sure how Wenger can be considered to have managed his way out of a slump tbh. Arsenal over the last decade have occasionally slipped to 6th or 7th (if that) at some point midway through the season to end up in the top 4 come May.

pandemic, Wednesday, 4 November 2015 12:58 (eight years ago) link

I don't really see all that much variance in form from Arsenal unless you're talking a month with say 2 draws and a loss followed by one of 3 wins and a draw? Have they ever been in a prolonged (8-12 games) slump?

pandemic, Wednesday, 4 November 2015 13:01 (eight years ago) link

I think it kind of makes sense - seeing the problems in an existing structure is a lot different from building something of your own - there are prob divides like this in many careers.

Moyes prob did manage his way out of slumps - as in the odd awful season followed by returning to 6th or whatever, IIRC?

doing my Objectives, handling some intense stuff (LocalGarda), Wednesday, 4 November 2015 13:02 (eight years ago) link

Wenger's never had a slump of the level of Mourinho now, but neither have most CL-level teams. They have had several periods of looking lacklustre for a month or even two, slipping out of the CL running, and bringing things back with a long run of consistent wins shortly after things looked at their worst. Wenger has been good at preventing a small slump from turning into a tailspin.

Matt DC, Wednesday, 4 November 2015 13:06 (eight years ago) link

that's one way of looking at it - another would be to say he's been in a small slump for a decade.

doing my Objectives, handling some intense stuff (LocalGarda), Wednesday, 4 November 2015 13:07 (eight years ago) link

I mean everything we know about Mourinho suggests that a refusal to admit wrongdoing is at the very least a major contributory factor towards Chelsea's form this season, as is an apparent inability to build bridges with key players. Repeatedly criticising the mentality of your players is the sort of crap you expect from John Carver or Tim Sherwood or whoever.

Matt DC, Wednesday, 4 November 2015 13:10 (eight years ago) link

Oh man I've just realised they've got Stoke next as well, that's the sort of fixture where managerial graves are dug.

Matt DC, Wednesday, 4 November 2015 13:11 (eight years ago) link

Moyes prob did manage his way out of slumps - as in the odd awful season followed by returning to 6th or whatever, IIRC?

His early years at Everton were a series of slumps and revivals - kept them up in his first season then finished 7th then 17th then 4th then couldn't buy a win the next season but brought them up from bottom to 11th by the end of the season. After that it was a consistent run of finishing between 5th and 8th but even then they always seemed to start or finish the season badly.

the fiest p (onimo), Tuesday, 10 November 2015 17:45 (eight years ago) link

youd have him ahead of ambrose alright

MONKEY had been BUMMED by the GHOST of the late prancing paedophile (darraghmac), Tuesday, 10 November 2015 22:48 (eight years ago) link

there are at least ten things I'd change at Celtic before Ambrose, who, and let's be clear, is a fucking disaster of a centre hoff

the fiest p (onimo), Wednesday, 11 November 2015 00:17 (eight years ago) link

Been paying less attention to the fitba than ever in the last year or two and confess that I have no great confidence in the current Aston villa squad to wriggle their way out of present difficulties, but I find the appointment of remi garde quite intriguing and I'll be interested to see where it leads.

Use of all the French players to hand during the recent man city match (even Charles n'zogbia ffs) has piqued my interest and got me to wondering if there are other examples out there of managers seemingly being appointed explicitly because of their ability to work with the particular resources available - villa invest large sums in young French players and then appoint a manager whose reputation is founded p. much entirely on his ability to work with and bring along young French players.

Are there other high profile examples of this kind of targeted appointment and if so, how successful has this strategy proven in the past?

Windsor Davies, Wednesday, 18 November 2015 15:54 (eight years ago) link

Just re-read this thread top-to-bottom for the 10th time btw, so great

Windsor Davies, Wednesday, 18 November 2015 15:55 (eight years ago) link

one month passes...

Valencia head coach Gary Neville has revealed in an exclusive interview with Sky Sports that the current focus is Valencia, but his long-term future does not lie in management.

The former Manchester United defender is in charge of the La Liga club until the end of the season, but is yet to win a game in the league.

His side face Real Madrid - live on Sky Sports 3 HD at 7pm on Sunday - following the 1-0 defeat by Villarreal on New Year's Eve. Valencia currently sit 11 points off the Champions League spots.

But the Englishman's long-term future is clear in his head, and speaking with Sky Sports' Geoff Shreeves, Neville said: "I'm not going to say where I want to end up, and it isn't in management or head coaching, so I want to be clear about that.

Jebtsundamba Khutuktu (nakhchivan), Sunday, 3 January 2016 11:54 (eight years ago) link

Gerrard thinks deeply about the game that has enabled him to fulfil his dreams and it is when the conversation moves on to management that his opinions strike a chord; he, after all, is one of a generation that includes Jamie Carragher, Frank Lampard and Rio Ferdinand with so much to offer.

'Would the likes of Carra and ex-players like Robbie (Fowler)? Keep them about. Find roles for them. They have too much to offer to just be let go. I have regrets now that I didn't start my badges at 21-22. All that time I wasted in hotels being when I was watching The Office and The Sopranos.

'I wish I could be doing my 'Pro' licence now. I know many players who get to the end of their careers and get handed a C licence pack, which is about four inches thick, and say "Nah, I'm not doing that". He could have 70/80 caps and 600 career appearances. They have so much to offer.'

Jebtsundamba Khutuktu (nakhchivan), Sunday, 3 January 2016 11:56 (eight years ago) link

the neville stuff is p ridiculous, like he had to distance himself from england and man u this week, when the valencia job, which he basically got due to being friends with a millionaire, is almost certainly a doomed project.

japanese mage (LocalGarda), Sunday, 3 January 2016 12:05 (eight years ago) link

'I wish I could be doing my 'Pro' licence now. I know many 70/80 caps and 600 career appearances players who get to the end of their careers and get handed an elite club level job, which is about having to do work, and say "Nah, I'm not doing that". They have so much to offer.'

Jebtsundamba Khutuktu (nakhchivan), Sunday, 3 January 2016 12:09 (eight years ago) link

zidane at real madrid is going to be a disaster

Cuombas (jim in glasgow), Monday, 4 January 2016 21:20 (eight years ago) link

afaik he is not very clever

Jebtsundamba Khutuktu (nakhchivan), Monday, 4 January 2016 21:22 (eight years ago) link

charismatic megafauna

Jebtsundamba Khutuktu (nakhchivan), Monday, 4 January 2016 21:23 (eight years ago) link

it's the opposite of a nascent appeal of managerial competence appointment

combining galactico signing policy with "good madrid man" appease-the-plebs-populism

Cuombas (jim in glasgow), Monday, 4 January 2016 21:28 (eight years ago) link

It's like an elite version of replacing Villas Boas with Tim Sherwood.

Matt DC, Tuesday, 5 January 2016 09:43 (eight years ago) link

lol right

sounding like a silly Iain Banks on a track (imago), Tuesday, 5 January 2016 09:59 (eight years ago) link

down to the ballyhooed not-sign-zidane-already-got-sherwood.html tales of yore

sounding like a silly Iain Banks on a track (imago), Tuesday, 5 January 2016 10:00 (eight years ago) link

three months pass...

like the idea of tuchel getting his defenders to play practice games while holding tennis balls in their hands to discourage shirt pulling.

pandemic, Thursday, 7 April 2016 14:49 (eight years ago) link

one month passes...

vg

Daithi Bowsie (darraghmac), Saturday, 14 May 2016 14:20 (seven years ago) link

one year passes...

Conte, Pochettino, Guardiola, Klopp, Mourinho, Wenger, Koeman, Pellegrino, Howe, Bilic, De Boer, Clement, Silva, Benitez.

Not all perfect by any means, especially at the back end of that list, but this probably represents the single best crop of managers to have all been working in the Premiership at once?

Matt DC, Tuesday, 27 June 2017 10:21 (six years ago) link

ffs you missed Wagner, who is as the chant goes "better than Klopp"!

calzino, Tuesday, 27 June 2017 10:31 (six years ago) link

Hard times for the Huddersfield fan: chased out of the EFL thread by angry Charlton hard-lads, unconsidered by the Prem lot.

Tim, Wednesday, 28 June 2017 14:28 (six years ago) link

Lol! It is hard out there when yr upstart club has just won the Euromillions jackpot.

calzino, Wednesday, 28 June 2017 18:06 (six years ago) link

xp
We might be getting Ince jr from Derby, so it will probably be our fault if they bid for Ollie Watkins. But at least they aren't shy of paying big transfer fees.

calzino, Wednesday, 28 June 2017 19:17 (six years ago) link

five months pass...

zidane at real madrid is going to be a disaster

― Cuombas (jim in glasgow), Monday, January 4, 2016 1:20 PM (one year ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

um

-_- (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 29 November 2017 22:07 (six years ago) link

Draw against a 3rd tier club yesterday in the Copa tbf

Le Bateau Ivre, Wednesday, 29 November 2017 22:09 (six years ago) link

lost to girona in the league a month ago too and currently 4th in the league.

but still won the champs league twice and la liga once so perhaps not the worst disaster

-_- (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 29 November 2017 22:12 (six years ago) link

Champs league don't mean shit nowadays. Just look at Spurs.

(he's not that bad though, I agree)

Le Bateau Ivre, Wednesday, 29 November 2017 22:13 (six years ago) link

Fp ya cuntcha

moyesery loves kompany (darraghmac), Wednesday, 29 November 2017 22:15 (six years ago) link

I'll take it on the chin.

Le Bateau Ivre, Wednesday, 29 November 2017 22:16 (six years ago) link

five years pass...

hadn't heard of this guy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxGz1nWwCaw

speedrunning managerial competency like never before

imago, Monday, 20 February 2023 14:23 (one year ago) link

six months pass...

i listened to wengers desert island discs the last night and hes a good charming speaker so he is

close encounters of the third knid (darraghmac), Monday, 4 September 2023 20:53 (seven months ago) link

Unfortunately no Magma or Heldon among his picks.

Monthly Python (Tom D.), Monday, 4 September 2023 20:54 (seven months ago) link

alas Lorraine

close encounters of the third knid (darraghmac), Monday, 4 September 2023 20:55 (seven months ago) link


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