Rolling Music Theory Thread

"you're back"

If you allow two augmented seconds you get the double harmonic major and other stuff.

The degenerate case mentioned above can possibly be thought of as leading to certain hexatonic and octatonic symmetric scales- whole tone, augmented, diminished.

18th-century music is typically what we focus on in (tonal) counterpoint courses.

This is actually one of the reasons why the CalArts syllabus seemed so striking to me. 16th-century, 18th-century, and 20th-century counterpoint are commonly covered in three different courses. Tbh, once I realized that he doesn't seem to give any sit-down written tests, might not actually mark all of those weekly assignments, and doesn't ask for any analysis outside of the two papers, the workload doesn't seem quite as extreme.

My understanding is that you play guitar, but not piano, really, is that correct, Sund4r? When you write your counterpoint exercises - or maybe I should say "wrote" since now you assign them for others to write- do you write them on piano for piano? Other instruments? Guitar as well?

I write most of the examples/sample solutions that I use in class. Tbh, I mostly write on Sibelius for 'piano', as far as these go? (Since they're usually only played electronically, I guess I write on Sibelius for synthesized MIDI piano but write such that the material would playable?) As far as my own compositional work goes, yeah, I write for a variety of instruments.

Well on paper/on Sibelius.

You still use paper?

Ha, well, yeah, I feel that Sibelius/Finale can lock me into a linear left-to-right, note-by-note way of working, when it can be more efficient to sketch out large-scale frameworks first. On tests, students do everything on paper.

This paper says that even the members of Lynyrd Skynyrd themselves don't agree on the key of "Sweet Home Alabama" and cites some references: http://www.academia.edu/1435121/Triadic_Modal_and_Pentatonic_Patterns_in_Rock_Music

listen to the chord they end on though...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHsDa9_HSlA

Won't let me watch that YouTube. Wonder what key Merry Clayton thought it was in.

Lots of music doesn't end on the tonic chord

That paper I linked seems reasonably accessible and useful, from what I have been able to read of it so far.

http://www.modernbluesharmonica.com/board/board_topic/5560960/5424776.htm

As for the story of Ed King playing his guitar solo in G, even though the song is in D, Kooper said, "IMHO, the song is in they key of D. Ed disagrees and says its in the key of G. We are both talking about the same finished recording. It is an opinion about an existing piece of music."

I am in the "G, obv" camp on this one but am pretty startled that Nicole Biamonte apparently disagrees with me and seems to be using voice-leading as an argument.

I always enjoy the final chord of "the song remains the same," which is in D. The guitar plays an A note and the vocal rounds out an F chord.

xpost I don't even really hear the melodic descent she's talking about in that note as being particularly significant in this song. The resting chord in the progression seems to be the G; the licks seem like straightforward G pentatonic stuff and don't really make sense to me in D Mixolydian; the melody mostly hangs on D but comes to rest on G, suggesting dominant-to-tonic motion.

It's no secret that musicians aren't always good analysts of their work btw.

although actually the story I heard before was that the band thought it was in G and the producer thought it was in D

the melody mostly hangs on D but comes to rest on G

OK, well, it doesn't always really do this and I guess that's the source of the ambiguity.

Ha, I found an old conversation from some years back where I said I could hear it in D.

@ Sund4r I am amazed that anybody could possibly hear "Sweet Home Alabama" in anything other than D-mixo and the live video posted above sounds like somebody in the band exercised veto power of stupidity. Jot down the melody or the guitar riff and they are both 100% functional D-mixo melodies that show zero-allegiance to G. I wonder what key these guys heard "You Can't Always Get What You Want" in

although actually the story I heard before was that the band thought it was in G and the producer thought it was in D

the guitar riff

Isn't this D5 (arpeggiated) - C5 (arpeggiated) - octaves on G - A-B-D-E-D-B-G?

That last lick seems like a really obvious G pentatonic line to me. I don't see how you could see zero allegiance to G. The vocal melody is what complicates things.

(I was with you on Daft Punk btw.)

I am in the "G, obv" camp on this one but am pretty startled that Nicole Biamonte apparently disagrees with me and seems to be using voice-leading as an argument.

OK. I just finally listened and I agree with Sund4r and crüt.

That is not a C5 though, it is a C9, the D is suspended over it. Is there a single F# that resolves to a G in this song? my memory recalls none. F#s always behave like the third of the I chord, not the third of a V chord

You never hear the C behaving like the IVth note of G either... it never creates a D7 chord. If the C9 was a C42 then I'd buy it but this is these are textbook modal cadences.

(Xpost) I am hearing the chords as landing on G. I don't understand argument that a melody could clearly be in D Mixolydian and have nothing at all to do with G- same set of notes, no, unless it kept landing on the note C where somebody said it was a G chord.

But I just read latest owen's latest post and I willing to consider it.

OK, I see his point. But I am used to hearing that cadence in a different harmonic rhythm - one bar of C, one bar of G, one bar of D.

Sorry I meant two bars of D

I'm serious about "You Can't Always Get What You Want", that is another D-mixo song (I can't recall what key it is actually in but you know what I mean). No V-I cadences, the melody plays around with the exact same weighting and shapes, but clearly, clearly, mixolydian. No C-chords per se but C-naturals appear in the string outro

Sweet home Alabama is in d. It never really rests on g. The song is always itching to get back to d when it's on the g.

y'all are nuts!!

That book none of you will ever read discusses this very problem here: http://books.google.com/books?id=K69vQY3RnZUC&pg=PA32&lpg=PA32&dq=%22jeff+brent%22+%22care+must+be+taken%22&source=bl&ots=NwbysDLMA5&sig=E0jVYJ-NZSB833IxWsoGJzjh_iM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=XZhQU6iNMaKT0QGW-IDQBA&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAA

That book is my version of hell. Serious: jot down the melody and tell me how it behaves even remotely like it's in G-major

Find an example of a song with a V-VI-I progression where the melody begins on the VII and always falls

xp that is true. I'll concede that the melody sounds good over IV-V-I on D.

Going to admit that I'm really exhausted and stressed tonight so may have been saying something knee-jerk. Should probably listen and think at a more lucid time.

We have a winner.

lol

So now trying to think up other tunes that do this to firm up my feeble understanding. Let's turn to Revolver, aka The Mixolydian Album. Anything similar? First thing that comes to mind is "Taxman" which seems to be in the same key of D7 and have the same progression on the chorus.

Guess the I chord is the, um, Hendrix chord, which might confuse a bit.

I think "Sweet Home Alabama" trips me up because it's in the same key as "Werewolves of London" which is definitely V-IV-I on G. But "Sweet Home Alabama" is just your standard blues I-IV embellished by a bVII, I guess? I've definitely learned something important from this - thanks!!

Yeah, thanks.

Trying to read that paper. She calls these changes or this cadence the "double-plagal progression" and gives lots of examples, including "Taxman" and "Sympathy For The Devil." Also refers to ideas in this paper http://www.mtosmt.org/issues/mto.04.10.4/mto.04.10.4.w_everett.html

Don't worry, Owen, we won't make you read any papers, just show us the light when we make a mistake.

Don't be shitty about it. I was not aware of Walter Everett's classifications but note that girl is referring to all the same examples I referred to off the top of my head upthread (Phrygian + "Army Of Me", Lydian + "Pretty Ballerina") but when she starts talking using phrases like "low-scoring" with regards to Beck songs I am thinking I am glad I don't write papers

Sorry, I was trying to be nice. I should have put a smiley or something.

Interesting that her other example of double-plagal is the outro to "Hey Jude" which, like "Sweet Home Alabama"-- if we are considering it as being in D-mixo-- has the vocal parts singing the tonic over the bVII and IV