Terrorist Action 11/9/2001 - Thread 6

You would have to look for groups that are capable of highly skilled and professional operations like this. Your first thought would have to be what is called "the Afghans" -- not necessarily the Afghan government, but that group of people who volunteered to fight with the mujahedin against the Soviet army and received very sophisticated training as well as financing from the CIA. This group would include bin Laden, but there are others as well.

The actions today clearly involved dozens but not hundreds of people. A small enough group to keep their activities secret as they were plotting.

We will desperately look for targets to strike; the pressure for retaliation will be enormous. But it will be hard for us to pinpoint the responsible parties. Groups like the Afghans are stateless. You could strike the Taliban central command, but it's unlikely their top leadership authorized it. These terrorist networks are purposely not highly structured. They're like the right-wing militia types in this country. They may all show up from time to time at the same gun shows, but there is no mailing list or centralized command.

We failed to kill those responsible for the Nairobi embassy bombing when we attacked Afghanistan and the Sudan. I think our chances this time of targeting the right people will also be very slim.

These actions took a tremendous level of precision and sophistication. My guess is this group put all of its resources into this; they've shot their wad. It might inspire other groups that view the U.S. to be the Great Satan to strike, but the numbers who are capable of pulling off something like this are few.

The Palestinians are unlikely to have been involved in something like this. Their rage is directed at Israel, the enemy within their sight. And their military and political apparatus is under immense stress right now; they have their hands full at home.

People are saying this attack was unprecedented, but there have been similar attacks against U.S. targets overseas, of course, like the embassy in Nairobi, the U.S.S. Cole and the military barracks in Saudi Arabia.

This action points less to Palestine than it does to the Saudi Arabia peninsula, where there is a major U.S. military presence and where the U.S. is a powerful backer of the Saudi royal family. Among those like bin Laden who view the U.S. as the Great Satan, in their minds the U.S. military is an occupying force in a sacred land and the Saudi family is corrupt and complicit.

I'm very worried about anti-Arab and anti-Islamic hysteria. And I'm very worried it will radically alter the lives of average Americans. It will be a long time before Americans ever take a plane trip the same way or visit public spaces. The fear will lead to stepped-up security measures and an erosion of our civil liberties.

Americans will struggle with the question "Why us. I thought we were the good guys?" But for many people in the world, we are a symbol of evil and oppression. Our vast wealth and power are bound to create resentment in some quarters. We should ask ourselves what actions our government has taken over the years that have built up this resentment. Such as our close relationship with the Saudi royal family, which many in that country view as hopelessly corrupt and tyrannical. Since there is no ability to oppose the family's rule in a democratic fashion, opposition to their rule is bound to take a terroristic route.

The terrorists involved were many things, but almost by definition were not cowardly.

And by your logic, the CIA would be the most "cowardly" organization on the face of this Earth.

Pinefox -- quite right; I wasn't necessarily defending their aims. Only agreeing that (a) it takes balls to attack the Pentagon under any circumstances, so the "cowardly" is perplexing, and (b) pretending that this is "senseless" and ignoring the very real political factors and motivations behind it seems deliberately ignorant and dangerous. By pretending that there are not reasons for this, we only allow for our country to take more actions that provoke the same problems in the future, when we will theoretically again plead ignorance to the situation that's affecting us.

This lack of information is the worst.

Do you see the gross double standard you're applying just to allow you to call terrorists "cowardly" (when surely "murderous" is enough)? A whole lot of Americans sacrificed their lives in WWII, and we consider that "courageous" and "honorable." Should they have found "worthwhile reasons for living," or can we just admit that people, no matter how extreme or indefensible their views, are not being "cowardly" when they die for things that they -- however wrongheadedly -- believe in?

The guy at the SF office has *already* set up a new firm-wide e-mail system, and apparently all of the principals will be having a pow-wow today.

FYI: Macnini Duffy backs up our entire network every month on computer tape which is sent monthly to an off-site location; in addition, we have three other offices around the country, so it's not inconcievable that we can get back on our feet relatively quickly.

I still have no idea if I have a job, though, and if I still do, when I can go back to...wherever. Mancini-Duffy set up a temporary space in Midtown Manhattan after the 1993 bombing, and I assume we'll do the same this time round.

Frank like you I think atheism is a more courageous option that the alternatives, but BOY is that a can o'worms....

As to WORLD DOMINATION, it occurs to me that (possibly) no one is actually left living of the precise org which undertook this particular attack. For from world dom, they have wiped themselves from the world (of course with countless others).

Today: September 12, 2001 at 9:20:02 PDT

FAA Unsure When Flights Will Resume WASHINGTON- The Federal Aviation Administration continued its ban on flying Wednesday and said it wasn't sure when airline flights would resume.

FAA spokeswoman Diane Spitaliere said agency officials were deciding when to allow planes to take off.

Hartsfield Atlanta International Airport, a major airline hub, said it would not open at noon, and Delta Airlines said all of its flights would be canceled until 6 p.m. EDT, including commuter flights. Southwest Airlines said it would not fly at all Wednesday.

Another FAA spokesman, Les Dorr, said people should not expect all flights to resume normal travel, since many planes are at the wrong airports.

"I think it is fair to say there is not going to be a mass exodus of planes and passengers that have been on the ground because some of the airlines have airplanes that are literally in the wrong place to fly their schedules," Dorr said.

He declined to discuss increased security measures, but said, "Passengers should expect to have to devote more time to the check-in process."

I'm not arguing that in the least, and I really hate the fact that trying to examine why people do things like this is interpreted as defending what they're doing. I'm only saying that however wrong and unjustifiable, there is still a fairly reasonable logical path leading to this event. I'm only saying that we as an American public seem to ask for a lot more differentiation between governments and civilians than we ask for elsewhere in the world. And I'm only saying that when you train and manipulate terrorists against your Cold War enemies, prop up unpopular totalitarian governments to preserve your military space, and near- unconditionally support the most despicable acts of other nations, you should not be entirely surprised to find that you may be hated for it. This is not a justification; this is just an explanation.

I'm going to have to take some time off work, if they'll let me. It's got to the point where I can't think anymore.

> -----Original Message----- > From: FAST Hotline London > Sent: 12 September 2001 4:53 PM > To: London PC Users > Subject: city demonstration > Importance: High > > Arab demonstrators are heading to the City and the police have advised all > to be vigilant. > > > Richard Boast > Fast Hotline > 1414

Sounds like more pointless finger-pointing and paranoia to me.

Wonderful Michael Moore piece - nail on the head as so often.

And thankyou so much Mr Daddino.

Mark: I don't think that in itself knowing I'm an atheist tells you anything interesting about my beliefs, or tells you one way or another whether I'm complex or simpleminded. And if I believed in God that wouldn't necessarily make me simpleminded, any more than it made Aquinas, Augustine, Luther, and scores (all right, millions) of others simple-minded.

Also (while in carping mode) I notice an ambiguity in this discussion's use of the word senseless. I.e., senseless meaning the opposite of "sensible," in which case the attack does seem to have been senseless, as opposed to "senseless" meaning "without reason or cause," in which case the attack was not senseless, and thoughtful people will try to make sense of it.

Pinefox - the other Kogan says this about his situation: "As it happens, I work in the CNN building, which has to be the safest building in Washington."

And Nitsuh, I don't have nearly enough information to have an opinion on how courageous or not the terrorists were. My point is that throwing one's life away in and of itself is not necessarily courageous. I can't imagine that you don't understand this.

I believe that Nitsuh's point is that throwing away one's life in and of itself is not necessarily cowardly.

We don't even know who they were yet. Until that time, all bets are off.