I would say there is lots of religion. Basically pop culture, celebrities, wealth, etc. has replaced the old gods. People still have weird rituals that have nothing to do with physical survival and are there for mainly psychological reasons. You who submit to your iPhone.
― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 22:23 (ten years ago) link
where all my alchemy believers at!??!
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 22:23 (ten years ago) link
if you want to stretch "religion" to mean all those things, it's a meaningless term but you win the argument
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 22:24 (ten years ago) link
― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, February 11, 2014 5:23 PM (29 seconds ago)
Sure, but is this a counterpoint? What does it have to do with scientific progression?
― Evan, Tuesday, 11 February 2014 22:25 (ten years ago) link
How is it a stretch to say money is God? Every day people are killed in the name of money, you know? I consider this dangerous, cultish behavior.
― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 22:26 (ten years ago) link
because no one thinks Money created the universe
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 22:27 (ten years ago) link
like many people who make your arguments, you are really emotionally invested in not admitting any space for religion in the world― Burt Stuntin (Hurting 2), Tuesday, February 11, 2014 3:16 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalinkwhy do you think that is?― Burt Stuntin (Hurting 2), Tuesday, February 11, 2014 3:17 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― Burt Stuntin (Hurting 2), Tuesday, February 11, 2014 3:16 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
why do you think that is?
― Burt Stuntin (Hurting 2), Tuesday, February 11, 2014 3:17 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
This isn't really directed at Hurting, but theists in general.
like many people who make your arguments, you are really emotionally invested in preserving any space for religion in the world. why do you think that is?
See where it gets you to make things psychoanalytically personal?
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 22:29 (ten years ago) link
Scientific progression, because the internet, because democratization of knowledge, because "I know more than you" or "I saw that meme first" is how you pray towards the god Information. Animated gif Iconography, fan fiction gaming mods, cosplayers pretending to be comic book gods in movies that make more money than whole nations.
― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 22:29 (ten years ago) link
i suspect you've never suffered from acid reflux if you'd describe it as a warm fuzzy feeling
― Mordy , Tuesday, February 11, 2014 3:55 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
man is there anything you can't suck all of the fun out of
― Lesbian has fucking riffs for days (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 22:29 (ten years ago) link
To be fair that's always the first thing that comes to mind when I hear that quote
― tsrobodo, Tuesday, 11 February 2014 22:30 (ten years ago) link
re: "why do you think that is?"...because I think overall religion is a negative force in the world. I would be happy to see it go.
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 22:32 (ten years ago) link
Because the purpose of religion for many people is primarily emotional, not explanatory. That's what you're missing.
― Burt Stuntin (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 22:33 (ten years ago) link
But you can't separate religion anymore than you can separate violence or frowning from the world, can you?
― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 22:33 (ten years ago) link
gee I never thought of that, Hurting, thanks.
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 22:34 (ten years ago) link
I just have a problem with how critical thinking isn't applied to religion. Lots of people that believe in that stuff would never believe in other things that have the same exact standard of evidence
― Evan, Tuesday, 11 February 2014 22:35 (ten years ago) link
the space that religion inhabits has been shrinking steadily. a logical conclusion would be that one day, MAYBE, it will inhabit no space
― tsrobodo, Tuesday, 11 February 2014 22:36 (ten years ago) link
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Tuesday, February 11, 2014 5:32 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
And this is exactly the kind of statement that you could never fully back up with scientific evidence, even if you could set up clear, objective parameters for what is meant by "overall a negative force in the world" which you can't
― Burt Stuntin (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 22:36 (ten years ago) link
I don't think anyone believes science will answer every question.
xp
― Evan, Tuesday, 11 February 2014 22:37 (ten years ago) link
My whole focus here was on the misleading nature of subjective experience and how that relates to the explanatory aspects of religion. Going "well people 'believe' for other reasons" is a retort for an entirely different conversation.
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 22:38 (ten years ago) link
― Lesbian has fucking riffs for days (Neanderthal), Tuesday, February 11, 2014 5:29 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark
sorry for sucking the fun out of acid reflux for u
― Mordy , Tuesday, 11 February 2014 22:38 (ten years ago) link
actually, it's the conversation we were having when you showed up in the thread
― Burt Stuntin (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 22:38 (ten years ago) link
that's why I put the words "I think" in there
It would be a better world if critical thinking were applied in not just religion but everywhere else.
― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 22:38 (ten years ago) link
and how was that conversation going? "oh hai did you guys know some people get emotional benefits from believing in a supernatural creator?" "oh no way? seriously? link please??"
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 22:39 (ten years ago) link
xpThen to be blunt surely if there will always be gaps in what we can know then there will always be room for religion.
― tsrobodo, Tuesday, 11 February 2014 22:40 (ten years ago) link
What would the world be like without science? Would we all be running around naked eating vegetables and living to 200?
― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 22:40 (ten years ago) link
this was kinda the beginning of the whole discussion - the lacuna between the neurology + the content, one ultimately accessible and the other not?
― Mordy , Tuesday, 11 February 2014 22:41 (ten years ago) link
― Mordy , Tuesday, February 11, 2014 5:38 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
is there like a bat signal that you respond to
(ftr, I not only know what reflux is, but have regurgitated in my sleep many times as a result of it.....)
― Lesbian has fucking riffs for days (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 22:41 (ten years ago) link
then wtf are you talking about if u have personal experience? it feels like someone splashing acid against the inside of your chest.
― Mordy , Tuesday, 11 February 2014 22:42 (ten years ago) link
- Bob Marley
Xp
― Ian from Etobicoke (Phil D.), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 22:42 (ten years ago) link
Then myself and Evan showed up and started talking about explanatory stuff. keep up, pal!
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 22:45 (ten years ago) link
Then to be blunt surely if there will always be gaps in what we can know then there will always be room for religion
Eh I don't think religion is going anywhere bit this is kinda question-beggy; i.e. assuming that "religion" (if we can even agree on what we mean by that - surely it means something other than just "not-science") will remain among the set of potential gap-fillers.
― Ian from Etobicoke (Phil D.), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 22:47 (ten years ago) link
while we're being all 'durrrrrrr' theologically faith doesn't often rest on proof; sometimes faith despite evidence to the contrary is praiseworthy, etc.
― Mordy , Tuesday, 11 February 2014 22:47 (ten years ago) link
otm
― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 22:48 (ten years ago) link
― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, February 11, 2014 5:38 PM (9 minutes ago)
Agreed!
― Evan, Tuesday, 11 February 2014 22:49 (ten years ago) link
Does the knowledge of how a film is actually made prevent you from getting engrossed in the story? Like do you sit there going "that's an over-the-shoulder shot -- he's not even in the same room as Nicole Kidman and that's the back of a double's head"?
― Burt Stuntin (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 22:55 (ten years ago) link
sometimes faith despite evidence to the contrary is praiseworthy, etc.
yep, it's a totally irrational way of thinking, we're in agreement
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 22:56 (ten years ago) link
Are you saying you've never engaged in such?
― tsrobodo, Tuesday, 11 February 2014 22:58 (ten years ago) link
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Tuesday, February 11, 2014 10:23 PM (28 minutes ago) Bookmark
Feel like alchemists can look back at the US retitling the first Harry Potter film as "The Sorcerer's Stone" as the moment when they were truly relegated to irrelevancy
― Insane Prince of False Binaries (Gukbe), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 22:58 (ten years ago) link
Did I say that? Lemme check...nope, I didn't. Sure I have. And I would hope that when such instances are pointed out to me, I would agree they were irrational.
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 22:59 (ten years ago) link
we're in agreement that it's irrational, we're not in agreement about the exclusivity of rationality
― Mordy , Tuesday, 11 February 2014 23:00 (ten years ago) link
Like the other day, I BELIEVED my brakes would allow me to stop from 75mph to make an exit. They, in fact, were not capable of such a thing. It was somewhat irrational for me to think they would. Next time that situation occurs, I will not believe the same thing again.
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 23:01 (ten years ago) link
I think you're thinking I'm saying "apart from religious thought, no person ever acts irrationally". Obviously that is false (scientifically-proven to be!). However, religion is "safe" from the checks science can make on its claims. Studies can show how going outside in the cold while wet doesn't actually cause a cold...a mechanic or engineer could've presented me evidence beforehand that, dude, you're not gonna be able to stop. Thus, irrational behaviors made in the specific (ie by single persons, groups of people, acting in the real world) can be exposed as irrational under the glare of scientific inquiry.
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 23:06 (ten years ago) link
it sounds like you're trying to argue that belief in god insulates itself against charges of irrationality by being unknowable (unlike whether you can stop your vehicle). being non-falsifiable maybe needs a term other than irrationality, but even if you say belief in god is irrational - who cares? so let it be irrational. god is also supposed to be paradoxical + ultimately unknowable so it's all cool.
― Mordy , Tuesday, 11 February 2014 23:09 (ten years ago) link
like i have way more problem w/ some scientifically explicable god (or even the concept of it - i don't like the 'god particle' re hoggs boson for this reason) than a scientifically utterly knowable god
― Mordy , Tuesday, 11 February 2014 23:11 (ten years ago) link
unknowable i mean in that final clause
it's irrationality, I have no problem with. How could I? people maintaining that it is rational, that I have a problem with.
the ether is supposed to be unknowable to. if it cannot be measured or observed, if it matters none whether one believes in it or not, then what's the point of it? oh, it provides emotional succor. Ok cool, but I find it a bit condescending to be a nonbeliever and view believers to be dependent on such a thing. "aww they're so cute with their irrational beliefs, but hey they'd be a total wreck without it." Sets the bar low for humanity imo.
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 23:17 (ten years ago) link
its irrationality not it's
other means of explanation may not pass scientific scrutiny, but that doesn't mean they've failed on their own terms.
― CANONICAL artists, etc., etc. (contenderizer), Tuesday, February 11, 2014 3:50 PM (8 minutes ago)
Like what?
― Evan, Tuesday, February 11, 2014 1:01 PM (2 hours ago)
depends on the means, right? if a spiritual belief system purports to describe purely supernatural (metaphysical, w/e) aspects of ostensible "reality", then the success or failure of that system can't be evaluated scientifically. science doesn't concern itself with the supernatural/metaphysical, with things that can't be observed and measured. science doesn't decisively deny such things, it simply ignores them as non-germane.
the belief system itself, however, can still be evaluated on own terms. does it seem to work? does it offer useful insight into spiritual matters (however such things might be constructed)? does it satisfy the needs & square with the perceptions of perceptions of those that employ it?
― CANONICAL artists, etc., etc. (contenderizer), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 23:21 (ten years ago) link
Or even, what does it tell about the culture that gave birth to it? What morals are most important? How are stories structured? Why do they decorate their houses the way they do?
― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 23:24 (ten years ago) link